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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:29 pm 
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HI
An estsablished protocol to deworm discus is to treat with beefheart food that has been medicated with 250-400mg/l of metro,then of perperazine and then follow up with prazipro in the water column.
I want to do this but use black worms that have soaked in the metro then piperazine soutions Does anyone know the effective concentration of the solutions in which to soak the worms to gain an effective dose?
For example, Ed's version of a dewormer with freeze dried blood worms using API general cure is very much higher in concentration than what would be put into the water column.He mixes enough general cure in 2 onces or so of water that would makes 250mg/l in 10 gallons of aquarium water. BTW ,I started with a solution of 250mg/l of piperazine and it did not kill the worms (ever,in fact)and I was going to soak the worms until the solution killed them and then feed the fish. In fact ,as solution of 5500mg/l does not kill the worms.
regards Al


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:06 am 
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mirador wrote:
HI
An estsablished protocol to deworm discus is to treat with beefheart food that has been medicated with 250-400mg/l of metro,then of perperazine and then follow up with prazipro in the water column.
I want to do this but use black worms that have soaked in the metro then piperazine soutions Does anyone know the effective concentration of the solutions in which to soak the worms to gain an effective dose?
For example, Ed's version of a dewormer with freeze dried blood worms using API general cure is very much higher in concentration than what would be put into the water column.He mixes enough general cure in 2 onces or so of water that would makes 250mg/l in 10 gallons of aquarium water. BTW ,I started with a solution of 250mg/l of piperazine and it did not kill the worms (ever,in fact)and I was going to soak the worms until the solution killed them and then feed the fish. In fact ,as solution of 5500mg/l does not kill the worms.
regards Al


So you want to soak live blackworms in a dewormer?

What about FD blackworms?

BTW, the API is something that though I do use when I need to (you can get t at most any LFS), but I prefer the dog dewormers that have the prazi, febendazole and pyrantel pamoate in a single tab, and add the metro. The only thing I object in the API General Cure is that it seems to be mostly salt. I have to give it for more time to see some good improvement in the feces of sick fish. For the dog dewormer (Bayer Drontal i.e. you need a veterinarian Rx BTW, so I get it via Ebay).

Anyhow, let us know how it goes...

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:51 pm 
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HI
I did deworm both the altums and my discus ( as a prophalactic in their case). Since the worms never died,I ended up using a final dosage of 1.2ml of piperazine per 2gallons of low TDS water. At that dosage the worms seemed weakened. I fed only the worms about 3 times per day for 5 days. All went well ,no stress to either of the two types of fish. Of course, since there was nothing much wrong with the fish before worming, though the altums weren't quite totally thriving after I left them in the hands of a :baby sitter" for a week, its impossible to tell if my treatment was effective.. They are all perhaps even perkier and more ravenous in their appetites.
The reason I wanted to deworm them was ,as I had written, I had problems with ragged fins some months ago.To cure it,I did a salt treatment for 4 days, plus I added cattappa leaves, removed the UV.and lowered the ph way down to what reached 4 at one time.... plus good wiping and 60% water changes per day. That cured the fins...but I got a reawakening of hexemita in the weaker fish. So, I treated with metro in the water, kept the ph low and that treated it Ok. So, I wanted to follow up with a deworming.
THe ph of both discus and altums is currently 4.5 ( it had reached 3.8 on some mornings). I am raising it slowly ( it is hard to do as there is a continual slow lowering of the ph at a TDS of 40 and a ph of 4 or 4.50). BTW both fish ( in separate tanks but using the same source water) are absolutely perfectly comfortable.

two things
1.I had asked Al Johnson of Rocky Mountain Discus for advice also. He called back from my message with a dire warning that if I killed off the worms with piperazine and fed the fish,it would kill them for sure.

2.Also I believe that my altums carry inactive columnaris on their fin tips and if I raise the ph up to the bacterial reactivation point ( 5.5 plus) they will get fin rot again.

THanks Al


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:30 pm 
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Al, it sounds that you did everything quite professionally and that you also sought good advice from RMD.

These wild fish need the deworming no matter how well they look, and as the years go by in their tank, you'll recognize when it's time for readministrating a deworming protocol.

I look at live worms as a fortifying medium, that is, I feed them with vitamin and mineral supplemented fish food with the intention that this will in turn be absorbed by the fish.

If at all my live blackworms are treated with metro, it's by rinsing them in a strong solution of +/- 84F moderately circulated RO water, to try and clean them off as best I can before putting them in their own holding/culture tank. You know these worms aren't fond of warmer temperatures, so 24 hrs is about it in the rinse.

As far as deparasiting and deworming the fish per se, I would emphasize that freeze dried bloodworm/blackworm or similar FD foods like earthworms or some pellet foods, serve the best. Garlic oil or other palatability enhancers are useful.

Dissolving the meds with grain alcohol is something I have incorporated more recently (as the dog deworming tabs I use dissolve better in this liquid) in my protocol. I later leave the alcohol soaked food to evaporate by putting it in the oven at low temp until it feels completely dry (and keeps the pleasant yet slight residual aroma of the sweet grain alcohol).

BTW, I liked your post, it is really explanative of how you controlled your pH and other parameters important for our wild altum and discus.

My regards

Ed

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


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