It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:22 am
 

 

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: anti parasite
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:44 pm
Posts: 112
HI
It would be a good guess that I have infected my 2 year (almost) old altums with a parasite from feeding live black worms. The black worms have to be the likely culprit even though I have been feeding them for quite a while. My storage temp for the worms is just a little too high and there have been some worm deaths.
The fish are just a little "off". They beg, but less outrageously, they could turn their tails to me and even "run" which is unheard of with them as they are very bold.. They eat well but they are not quite right if you know them. I raised the temp to 30C just to help. If they were discus they would have just gotten what we call hexemita but which really could be things like capellaria.
THis cannot be all that rare an occurance. Does anyone like ED know the best way to proceed? TO do a full antiparasite regimen with Metro, then piperazine ,then Prazi is kind of a big deal and expensive in a 220.gal.
THey don't eat just anything so I cannot just dose them with homemade antiparasitic discus beefheart food ( which would be handy).AS well they eat no dry or pellet food at all though they will eat a modified version of Ed's concoction of freeze dried blood worms and metro or prazi but it is hard to get enough into them to get it to work. ..I never thought that method worked well. ..partly because the bloodworms break in to small pieces. I will not move them out of the 220.. Moving these guys to a hospital tank has the effect,due to stress, of making a slightly sick fish instantly worse.

Any info appreciated before I proceed
Al


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: anti parasite
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:09 am 
Offline
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 4239
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Hi Al. I'v had success with both the freeze dried bloodworm and more recently, with freeze dried blackworms.

Now, I got rid of the freeze dried bloodworms breaking up or becoming a dustlike mess by buying fresh product. There are a few vendors which I have got really nice quality FD bloodwoms from. I get my FD blkworms from Dan at Aquatic Foods. I buy them loose.

The mix I have been using in more recent years is:

1. Seachem Metroplex.
2. Seachem Focus.
3. Prazi/Fenbendazole/Pyrantel (Bayer Droncit equivalent, I've used generics from Ebay)
4. Entice or Garlic Guard.

I start by mortaring a tab of the Droncit in about 2 tbsp of grain alcohol until dissolved.
Then I grab a plastic tupperwarelike cup with a tight fitting cap in which I can mix in and shake all the powdered meds + the Focus (binder) and the Entice all together, then I add this mix to the FD bloodworms or blackworms and knead all this together, trying to bring a "natural" wetness to the mix (as if they were live worms), not over hydrating them. I let them rest a good while to help all the entice and meds get as well absorbed as possible.

Then I put the stuff into an airtight bag (I use a handheld vacuum food sealer) and spread the mix flat in the bag. I put it in the fridge or freezer (better if you thaw it a bit if it was in freezer) . I usually make enough for about a week of medicated feeding.

There is one thing I add to the water column and it is flubendazole. I recently treated a group of Mesonauta egregius from Colombia with this oral prep and the flubendazole and they are doing nicely.

I've also tried flubendazole in the food, as per above, also seems to work well.

*****

Don't now your exact setup (if you have plants or a lot of bacteria laden substrate), but have you considered just bringing down the water level into your tank to around 40-50 gallons?

A good water change and dosing flubendazole is what I would do. This should perk them up enough to get their appetites back on track.

Well, this is how it has worked for me. I only do this to wild fish.

Good luck.

Ed

_________________
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: anti parasite
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:44 pm
Posts: 112
HI Thanks for all that information(
There are ,of course difficulties here. At present I do not know:
1. the proportions of the mix (which makes making it tricky)
2.anything about prazi except in it's already liquid form ,Prazipro. or how to buy it.
3.I don't have a source for droncit or fenbendazole or powdered prazi though I do have a veterinary friend who may carry it but not know a thing about how to use it on anything smaller than a horse.

For example,I did source and get levamisole years ago ( all of these things are harder to get now)but I never learned how to transfer it's use from a pig wormer to fish and never did use it)
All this stuff is easy once you know how but ,currently,I do not know how.
Could you elaborate a bit?

THanks Al


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: anti parasite
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:17 am 
Offline
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 4239
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Hi Al. I don't use Prazipro in the food mix. I use the Prazipro only in the water column, and this if I see rapid gill movement.

As to the tablet/powder. Look like now we can get the original Bayer Drontal from Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bayer-Drontal-P ... Swi0RXxs1e
I notice it comes from Thailand. Don't know if that means anything to you... I've gotten mine from Bulgaria and Thailand (and they didn't carry the Bayer name on it... for peace of mind).

As to the dosing, I don't do it by fish/food weight because I only prepare very small batches that are consumed for the week or duration of the treatment. What I do is mix in 1 tbsp of Metroplex and 1 tbsp of Focus with the Entice, enough so it will all mix well (shake until you get a milky mix). Then I crush and mortar the Drontal (1 small tab or 1/2 large tab) in the grain alcohol. Add to the milky mix.

Shake all together and knead so your freeze dried product absorbs all it can. Refrigerate.

Once the medicated food hits the water, the part of medication not absorbed into the freeze dried component will, despite the binding effect of the Focus, be released into the water column.

Healthy fish tend to eat this prep with no problem... just fast them for a day or two before feeding and pump the T up to near 90F to stimulate their appetite (High T = High Metabolic rate = > appetite). Take in mind I use this mostly as a deparasting protocol for newly acquired wild fish.

So in the end, the fish only get enough meds in their belly as comes inside or adhered to the FD worm they eat.

Been with this formula since about 1993, never had an issue.

I only started using the grain alcohol or vodka to dissolve the drontal the last couple of years... it helps.

***

I have not used flubendazole in this mix, but I have added it INSTEAD of the other meds, and in water column.

Hope this helps and let us know how it goes if you decide to go this way.

_________________
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: anti parasite
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:44 pm
Posts: 112
HI and THanks

but there are so many little detail questions and confusions.:
If I buy exactly the dog wormer that you put in the link in your previous post, will that be a "big" or a "small" tablet?..as in are big tablets for big dogs and small for little dogs. I gather that one of those tablets, ground up with the other various (usually Seachem ingredients) and added to best quality freeze dried blood worms from the California supplier of live blackworms will work... if they eat it and they should as they like frozen bloodworms and I can sneak some in.

this Drontal is a fendbendazole,prazi, plus another worming ingredient for dogs not available just anywhere but you can get it on ebay. Are Drontal and Droncit the same thing..they sure better be.

Also, I have never read any directions ever for using fenbendazol,fishbendazole etc or its precursor ,levamisole, in the water column. They always come with an "add to food " direction and are allegedly not gill permeable probably because the molecule is too big. Of course, everything you read on the internet is an absolute fact,correct? Do you have /use a water column protocol for the fenbendazol or levamisole ( which is available form angels plus). Levamisole It is the pig wormer that you can get a farm supply stores.

BTW as for the fish,they are pretty good and are "dealing with it". But you can tell they are not perfect. As you but not everyone would know, at their best altums are quite substantial:,dark brown or jet black and silver with at least a trace of red in the rear of their eyes, red and blue dots on their head area, very clear and not translucent fins ,particularly the tail fin and very long ,sometimes red trailers on the tail fin....My trailers are red. Conversely, if they are not quite right,they get a little ghostly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: anti parasite
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:19 pm 
Offline
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 4239
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Al, I will try to answer your question "inline":

Quote>


Hi and THanks

but there are so many little detail questions and confusions.:
If I buy exactly the dog wormer that you put in the link in your previous post, will that be a "big" or a "small" tablet?..as in are big tablets for big dogs and small for little dogs. I gather that one of those tablets, ground up with the other various (usually Seachem ingredients) and added to best quality freeze dried blood worms from the California supplier of live blackworms will work... if they eat it and they should as they like frozen bloodworms and I can sneak some in.

I always use the big ones. Reason is simple, I get more product. You just said "Duh!"

this Drontal is a fendbendazole,prazi, plus another worming ingredient for dogs not available just anywhere but you can get it on ebay. Are Drontal and Droncit the same thing..they sure better be.

No they aren't. Bayer has three formulations containing praziquantel:
1. Droncit. Praziquantel.
2. Drontal. Praziquantel + Pyrantel Pamoate
3. Drontal Plus. Praziquantel + Pyrantel Pamoate + Febantel

I have been using Drontal Plus since 1993 until 2003 (I was able to get this product OTC in Venezuela)
Here in the states I have used Drontal Plus equivalents (generic formulations) that I can get via Ebay becuase I needed an Rx from a vet to buy the Drontal Plus. I have used Canidon, which I have gotten from Bulgaria, Greece, Thailand and a U.S. based seller. Canidon is the exact same formula as Dronatl Plus.


Also, I have never read any directions ever for using fenbendazol,fishbendazole etc or its precursor ,levamisole, in the water column. They always come with an "add to food " direction and are allegedly not gill permeable probably because the molecule is too big. Of course, everything you read on the internet is an absolute fact,correct? Do you have /use a water column protocol for the fenbendazol or levamisole ( which is available form angels plus). Levamisole It is the pig wormer that you can get a farm supply stores.

Let's differentiate here FENBENDAZOLE, which I have never particularly used from FLUBENDAZOLE, which is what I have used in the water column, and more recently, also in feed AND in water column at the same time.

FLUBENDAZOLE is well know and not always liked among more experienced discus hobbyists. You can read more on the product at Simply Discus. It originally hit the English discus hobby in the early 2000's by means of our old friend Granville Hammond who marketed at a 15% formulation. It was a great product, but some hobbyists reported scary side effects when using it. It helped me trigger breeding in some species like A. iniridae (which is per se easy when you give them the conditions they need, but mine bred in hard water here in SLC upon adding the flubendazole). Granville had to stop selling it in Britain in the mid 2000's because of a change in the law in Britain. Here in the U.S. one of the few sources to get it at is Charles Harrison in Missouri, he has 10%. Charles is a Chemist, Ink manufacturer and a killifish hobbyist. So NOT FENBENDAZOLE but FLUBENDAZOLE and they are different.



BTW as for the fish,they are pretty good and are "dealing with it". But you can tell they are not perfect. As you but not everyone would know, at their best altums are quite substantial:,dark brown or jet black and silver with at least a trace of red in the rear of their eyes, red and blue dots on their head area, very clear and not translucent fins ,particularly the tail fin and very long ,sometimes red trailers on the tail fin....My trailers are red. Conversely, if they are not quite right,they get a little ghostly.

Hard to describe them better Al... you have that ability to draw pictures with your words!



_________________
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

 

 
 

Species Identification Guide


Domestic Angelfish Genetics


Angelfish Chronicles


Members Galleries


 
Contact: Forum Administration
E-mail: info@finarama.com
Finarama.com
Dedicated to further understanding the Genus Pterophyllum