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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:59 am 
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Simon has kindly sent along for us some photographs of his Atabapo F1 and Inirida F1 (respectively 19 and 20 month old) for us to see the differences between them.

He feels that there are some distinctions between the two types and despite the experience I may have when comparing newly caught adult wild specimens, I am scratching my head when comparing these F1 out of the Rio Inirida and Rio Atabapo! ... I mean, I see some really beautiful fish in these photos but it seems Simon is referring to something that escapes me (other than a maybe slightly more pronounced notch in Atabapo? or other finer individual details?)... Your opinions?

Comparing most any fish of the same species from different locations may be a challenging thing that can at times easily fall into the realm of subjectivity but some eyes are sharper than others.

Simon writes to me in German and we both use computer translating to communicate, so I am going to ask Dirk (who not only speaks German but who also personally knows Simon) to ask Simon a little more on the more evident differences he (as the breeder) may see, and maybe Dirk, you can also give us a better insight as you are certainly more objective than I am.

And Simon, if you'd like to post directly on the forum or it would be easier for you to communicate your ideas through Dirk, it is your choice, but you know we are always here for you and you know Finarama is always wanting to know what is happening inside the walls for your fish room.

Thank you for this nice Christmas present on behalf of all our members here at The Angelfish Study Group and the Finarama Forum.

---

Good day Ed,
I hope you and your family are doing well.
Enclosed I send you photos (2 x Rio Atabapo F1 - 19 months old, photo 6323, 6320) and (2 Rio Inirida F1 - 20 months old, photo 6249, 6263).
I think that the photos clearly show the differences between the two location options.
You can put in the forum so that users can see the difference the photos.
I am happy to hear from you again - I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a good start into the New Year.
Looking forward to your photos via altum.
Kind regards
Simon


I promise I will get you a nice video or photos of the fish Mike and I are growing out by Christmas!
ER


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Please keep us posted Ed.
I'd be curious myself.
they are nice looking Altum.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:06 am 
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I see very little differences between the 2 and I'm an absolute snob about it. lol. Perfect as always from Simon.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:32 pm 
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I can't tell the difference between the Atabapo & the Inirida altums. I will say this WOW!! These altums are breath taking.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:26 pm 
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OK, this kind of frustrates me! Look at the size of this THING and it's only 19 months old (Atabapo F1 from Simon), compare to the cone in the back, and the heckels!

I'm waiting on Simon's reply as to an average SL measurement on his batch (or at least of this specimen).

Ed


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:30 pm 
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So just to get things right and not losing anything in translation via our Google Translator conversations, I asked Dirk to write Simon regarding the differences he sees in his Atabapo F1 and Inirida F1 offspring.

I am copying this from Dirk's email:


"Hi Professor Bellstedt, nice to hear from you, I hope you will find the time to be able to compare the DNA samples that I have sent you, they were altums that looked different and had different origins. In this email I am sending you two photographs (head shots) of my F1 offspring from the Rio Atabapo and the Rio Inirida, as I already sent some photos of my F1 offspring for the forum. In my opinion, there are differences in the body shape, fin length, and head area (mouth, notch) and colour.
Rio Atabapo F1 (Pic 0058), 19 months old, Spanning width (fin height 32 cm), body length (from the mouth until the start of the tail fin 11cm). Mouth a little longer and notch somewhat deeper. Greater amount of red in the head area, body shape higher and finer patterning (translation filigree, but we don't use it like this).
Rio Inirida F1 (Foto 0108) 20 months old, spanning width (fin height 28 cm), body length (from the mouth until the start of the tail fin 12cm). Mouth a little shorter and notch normal. Red-blue colouration in the head area, body shape more voluminous and stocky.
Could you please send this description and the photos to Ed for the forum.
I wish you and your family a nice Christmas day.
Kind regards,
Simon Forkel"

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:54 pm 
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In regards to Simon's observations we need to understand that:

1. He is working with a very limited population to be able to establish any definitive differences with statistical significance. Since he is working with a small number of pairs of each locality (Atabapo and Inirida), the traits will basically be defined by the parents that form the pair (two fish), and the pair may not necessarily represent the typical species type of the location in question. This said, we need to interpret that the differences Simon notes, are particular for the offspring he is presently producing from the pairs he has. Though statistically, we would need a much larger sample from different proven collection sites to establish numbers of true meaning, we can already evidence a tendency of traits in Simon's offspring, which in itself, I think supports the general differences described by others, including Bleher and also myself. I refer to the general differences we have observed between specimens from Atabapo and from Inirida.

2. If the breeder has selected the very best and most colorful fish, with superior fin development, these may not be the most typical representatives from their location, but, the offspring will inherit these excellent traits (or have a major potential to do so). By doing this, we may still see some differences, but these differences may be less than those observed among a more general (average) group of specimens of a specific location.

3. For these reasons it may be harder for us to see in the photographs any meaningful differences and hence, Simon's observations are of utmost relevance since only he has been able to see the development in his two wild strains and take note of these to share them with us.

4. I believe Simon Forkel's Inirida F1 is superior to the general wild population we normally see in the trade because he started by selecting the best specimens he could acquire and has given them excellent care allowing the F1 to develop to a full potential that would be very hard for any wild caught to achieve in the same time frame. His Atabapo F1 are also of course, excellent, especially in regards to the intensity of the red pigmentation.

Thanks Simon and I hope you can share your opinion on this.

Regards

Ed

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:14 pm 
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Simon has sent us some close ups of the head of some of his Inirida X Inirida F1, and Atabapo X Atabapo F1 for comparison, as well as some notes of his observations which I am copying from the email he sent.

Simon's Notes:
QUOTE: "Now to the actual topic - Differences between rio and rio Atabapo Inrida - it has already Prof. dr . Bellstedt translated . Below I will email to you three photos where you can see the differences well . Of course the color of Pt changed. altums in the aquarium , even freshly caught tomboys show after a few months a different color ! this is due to the change in water and fodder quality .
I
I personally feel that the offspring more color in the head and back show, they also have at optimal breeding very nice long fins and are simply healthier and more trusting. I've never had problems with parasites or other worms.
They are also available in my tap water PH 7.5 KH 4, 280 ms and 28 ° temperature and so it is easy for any aquarium, these beautiful fish on and raise."


Photos below.


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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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Last edited by puertoayacucho on Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:18 pm 
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Among a group of wild specimens we would have more obvious differences but selective breeding from the best specimens you can get your hands on makes quite a difference.
ER

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