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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Location: Malaysia
Finally my sta isabel form a bonding again. No more disturbance from me like last time. Hopefully they can give me some result this time.

Inside my tank still got one 2-3months peruvian. The sta isabel seen guarding some teritory together from peruvian.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:08 am 
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any pictures of the setup?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:00 am
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Location: Italy
Congratulations! Any pictures?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:57 am 
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My water too dark....cannot take photo :(


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:15 am 
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Location: Somerset West, South Africa
Oh no basic simple,

First you tempt us by telling us there is spawning activity and now you can't show us a pic?

All jokes aside, can you not use a flash? We would really like to see those fishes.

Kind regards,

Dirk

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:53 am 
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sorry for taking so long...chinese new year is coming...quite busy lately.

With my lousy photography skill this is the best i can get already.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Regards,
John[/img]


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:41 am 
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Location: South Africa
So they haven't laid eggs yet? Well at least you got two dating ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:26 pm 
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At least they are dating and no more fighting altough sometimes they flare each other but no strong biting.

i am not too sure about the angel fish breeding coz i only managed to breed peruvian previously. My angel keeping only few months. Jitticus introduced me to sta isabel angel and i bought it. For normal angel normally when the pair form territory the breeding period will be near. This is just my observation only no supporting idea.

Anyone got any experience with bigger angel like sta isabel or altum? How is their breeding process?

- Seasonal? I think this is yes.
- How long they pair before they laid eggs?
- Pairing means must lay eggs?

At least I got the first step which is pairing. Long long ways to go....

I asked this question because i am curious about the altum and sta isabel angel breeding. Why it is so hard to breed?

They seldom pair?
If we managed to pair will they really lay eggs or sometimes we only managed to pair but no eggs come out?
How long the pairing take before they lay eggs?

Regards,
John


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Hi John,

Thanks for posting those pics, they give us a good idea of your fishes and the conditions that you are keeping them. They are really beautiful and you are fortunate to have such nice fishes.

First of all, I would like to comment that it is fascinating to see the fishes that close up and in my opinion, I do see P altum characters there, these fishes are not typical P scalare, I would like Ed and others to give an opinion about them as well. As you know we have just had an extended discussion about the possible origins of Santa Isobels and that there may be a P altum influence in these fishes.

Then you ask about why they are so difficult to breed.

With regard to pair formation, I think this occurs quite often, but it does depend on the fact that you need to keep enough fishes to enable them to do pair off, I would think 12 are a minimum and not everyone keeps that many.

We cannot tell you, how long they have to pair off before they lay eggs, this depends very much on the condition of the fishes and the water conditions.

Pairing does not mean they must lay eggs. I know that Simon Forkel has a beautiful pair of Rio Atabapo P altum that are in excellent condition and they display at each other just about all the time. He knows under which water conditions his other pairs spawn, but he can't get this pair to spawn, so they are not easy to get to actually spawn.

I would suggest that you feed the fishes as well as you can, they could perhaps have a little more body, although their condition is good. Then I would do regular water changes with soft acid water. When you change the water, you can let the temperature drop by one or two degrees, not more. I obviously cannot see where this aquarium is positioned in your house, but I get the impression that one can look right through it, perhaps you should close some of the sides with some brown (not black) paper to protect them more from seeing rapid movement of persons walking past. Also, I wanted to ask, you are keeping them on an all glass bottom tank, is the base white polystyrene? If it is, that is not good as it makes them scared and shy. I would also like to suggest that you add a thing layer of sand or gravel, (be careful that it is not a shell containing gravel as this would add carbonate hardness which you do not want), as this is important in wildcaughts, they do not like being of a bare bottom tank, even if management of such a tank is much easier. You will also find that the ventral fins will be less frayed if you add gravel as we know that angels pick up bacteria from a bare bottom tank which damages their fins. You can also introduce an earthenware spawn cone, perhaps to the left of the logs. As far as the logs are concerned, that is excellent cover, so keep that in place.

Keep us informed of your progress, as you say, you now have a pair which is a big step in the right direction, now you need to move to the actual spawning, let us see if we can help you.

Kind regards,

Dirk

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:09 am 
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Location: Malaysia
Hi Dirk,

Thanks for your info and suggestions.

I put my aquarium outside my house. I stay alone so the angel will only see me but I always change my guppy water so there should be a lot of people movement.

Ya it is an all glass tank. Maybe I will add a thin gravel layer for them later. River sand are good and not alter water parameters.

I will take all this info you recommended to setup a new tank for my father altum.

For the pairing sometimes it really depends on luck since I have a friend that able to pair his altum with only 3 fishes although he sold it to a Japanese at last.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:33 am 
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Beautiful fish and a stunning chunk of wood you have in the tank.
Pairing numbers is just down to luck sometimes, a friend of mine bought 2 tiny fry off another friend and they ended up breeding and raising fry themselves.
They weren't wilds though which would be a different kettle of fish, so to speak!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Hi John,

You guys are so lucky that you can put your tanks outside, something like that is out of the question for most European, USA and Canadian aquarists. I can keep my guppies outside at the moment, but I cannot keep angels and discus outside.

If you are considering changes and are considering keeping altums in a new tank, then there is one very important additional consideration that you should think of and that is that you increase the depth of your tanks (if i say depth I mean top to bottom of the tank). If I am to guess at the depth of the aquarium that you are keeping your SA angels now, I would think that the aquarium is about 50 cm deep. Is that about right? Well if you are considering changes and thinking of keeping altums, you would do much better if you made your tanks deeper, 60 cm is a minimum for altums and if you can go to 70 cm it would even be better. For that pair that you show us to breed, I would suggest at least 60 cm deep, I think the tank may be too shallow. If you can afford such a tank it would help a lot, but it is of course impossible for me to assess what your budget is, so far you are doing fine.

Kind regards,

Dirk

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:43 pm 
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My actual tank for sta isabel is 15 inches height. The one you see is 18inches. Thru my observation they do better in higher tank. The fishes movement are so different in higher tank. Maybe i will change to higher tank soon.

My tank for altum is 48L X 24W X 30H in inches.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Hi John,

I am glad that you have already come to the conclusion that a higher tank is required, the fishes are just simply more relaxed in a higher tank and that is essential for breeding.

The dimensions of the tank that you propose to keep your altum in sounds perfect and they will be very happy in such a tank.

Kind regards,

Dirk

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