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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:06 am 
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One more !


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:53 am 
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since tony tam has a lot of progeny why doesnt he make a dorsal ray count of at least 20 of his fish to see if the ray counts fall within the altum range? im saying 20 so that he can get a good sample size.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:59 am 
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Tony wrote:
I have just been member of the forum and i see you talking about my shippment and what Kaj posted here on the forum,,i copie the info from the other thread ,,,

http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1688#21688

Hi my name is Tony Johansson 40 years old and live in sweden. The discus fish have been my hobby for about 15 years. Nowadays i have a company (whole saler) and I import lots of dicus every year.For the moment i have no time to breed discus fish,but it hope it will be in future.
I have about 10m3 of water.Im also in the border of Nordic Discus society like Kaj !!

Now i have also bought those Altum fish from Jeffrey and Tony Tan.Im also a person that have very little experience about this fish so im in the learning stage. So thats why have just registrate on your forum and will learn about this fish.Then i found this thread !!

Im the guy that have import all Altums from Jeffrey and sold some to Kaj.p.I have got big discussions with Jeffrey if its thrue or false altum.I trust Jeffrey when he is telling me its thrue altum,why not ????

About the list That Kaj posted.Its wrong because Jeffrey told me to change my advertisement of F2 to F1 because he is selling of his F1 first !! so now have we solved that problem !

I have many good pictures i can post here and also a video from my tanks.I have also got a video from Jeffrey when the pair is breeding but i must first ask him if its ok to post it here Many compare my pics of small Altum with bigger old altum.I think that is very wrong! !!

Jefrey told me to raise them up.Its very big difference between the sizes and look totaly different.I have to sizes 15-17 and 7-9 cm.They eat like horses.I hope they will be the same as Jeffrey pair 50+ cm,,,


I will post as soon I have learn your forum functions !!

regards Tony Johansson


Thanks so much for clearing this up. I too have the upmost faith in Tony Tan.

Kraig


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:30 am 
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L204EmperorFlash wrote:
since tony tan has a lot of progeny why doesnt he make a dorsal ray count of at least 20 of his fish to see if the ray counts fall within the altum range? im saying 20 so that he can get a good sample size.


Ok,,explain a little bit more for a man that not understand ,,, :D
Hom many shall it be ?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Location: San Jose,CA,USA
Tony wrote:
L204EmperorFlash wrote:
since tony tan has a lot of progeny why doesnt he make a dorsal ray count of at least 20 of his fish to see if the ray counts fall within the altum range? im saying 20 so that he can get a good sample size.


Ok,,explain a little bit more for a man that not understand ,,, :D
Hom many shall it be ?


please refer to Schultz table found below:

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:51 pm 
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Hi !!

Thanks i will forward it to Jeffrey Tan,,,,


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:15 am 
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Location: San Jose,CA,USA
Tony wrote:
Hi !!

Thanks i will forward it to Jeffrey Tan,,,,


great! hopefully he can do the counts or ask an ichthyologist in taiwan to do the counts for him. hopefully this will be step towards helping resolve the issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:57 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:56 pm
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Location: Bishop's Waltham UK
.
Quote:
hopefully this will be step towards helping resolve the issue.


There is an overlap in the counts twixt Scalare and Altum in Schultze's data. If fish fall within this overlapping of the ray counts, what would it tell us?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Phill Austen wrote:
.
Quote:
hopefully this will be step towards helping resolve the issue.


There is an overlap in the counts twixt Scalare and Altum in Schultze's data. If fish fall within this overlapping of the ray counts, what would it tell us?


that is precisely why i am recommending that they do counts on at least 20 individuals so he can see if the distribution of ray counts mirror Schultz' data. if you look at Schultz data there's a difference in distribution of ray counts between wild angelfish populations. Yes there is an overlap but when you analyze the data as a totality you can appreciate a difference in distribution of ray counts. Tony Tam can also add oblique scale row counts as well. Im sure there are competent taiwanese ichthyologists that can help tony count the rays and scales. if it looks and counts like an altum then there's no more controversy. case closed.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Quote:
if it looks and counts like an altum then there's no more controversy. case closed.


Do they look like smal altums ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-GaLyRl ... r_embedded


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:22 pm 
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Tony, i will quote Schultz and you may be shocked in what he said and im sure there were will be disagreements in this forum with his statement:


...P.scalare and P. altum cannot be distinguished on the basis of coloration. The chief differences are the greater number of soft dorsal and soft anal fin rays and the number of scales in P. altum (tables 3 and 4). P altum has 27 to 31 soft dorsal rays whereas P. scalare rarely has more than 26.


Kullander has a comment on this data. He wrote:

PterophyLLum aLtum Pellegrin from the R. Orinoco and R. Negro is recognizable by its very deep body and higher meristics and appears adequately conceived in Schultz (1967) although I count 46-48 squ.long. scales in NRM material (Schultz gives the range 40-47).

you can find more on what Kullander wrote by going to page 210 of this link:

http://www.svenkullander.se/publication ... u_1986.pdf

what am i trying to drive at? meristics and not photos is the key in identifying whether the fish you have is an altum or a scalare.

by the way tony if you want a complete copy of Schultz 1967 paper, send me a pm and ill email it to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:23 pm 
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L204EmperorFlash wrote:
Tony wrote:
Hi !!

Thanks i will forward it to Jeffrey Tan,,,,


great! hopefully he can do the counts or ask an ichthyologist in taiwan to do the counts for him. hopefully this will be step towards helping resolve the issue.


Not that it matters but Jeffrey is from Malaysia.

I am not going to bother Jeffrey with this anymore. He has had DNA testing done on these fish many times and Tony from Sweden is going to have DNA testing on the fish he has now from Jeffrey.

I can donate a fish or two after I receive mine to clear up this matter though. I use Kentucky State University’s fish pathologist to check my fish when I get them in and I could see if he is qualified to do the ray count. I would be open to sending a few to a recommended non bias party to have the authenticity of these Altums Verified.

Thanks,
Kraig Koontz


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Quote:
I am not going to bother Jeffrey with this anymore. He has had DNA testing done on these fish many times and Tony from Sweden is going to have DNA testing on the fish he has now from Jeffrey.


Last week i talked with Jeffrey about it.But i dont now if its possible to compare DNA after some information.What shall we compare with,who have the right code ? So It was not that easy that i thought from the beginning !!

Maby someone have the experience about this things.I also think its very expensive to do a DNA test,,, ?

Quote:
by the way tony if you want a complete copy of Schultz 1967 paper, send me a pm and ill email it to you.


Thanks for information,,,,now everything is total "not" clear,,ha,ha

You can send it to ,,,,,,

tony.johansson2@telia.com


Last edited by Tony on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Location: San Jose,CA,USA
Tony wrote:
Quote:
I am not going to bother Jeffrey with this anymore. He has had DNA testing done on these fish many times and Tony from Sweden is going to have DNA testing on the fish he has now from Jeffrey.


Last week i talked with Jeffrey about .But i dont now if its possible to compare DNA after some information.What shall we compare with,who have the right code ? So It was not that easy that i thought from the beginning !!

Maby someone have the experience about this things.I also think its very expensive to do a DNA test,,, ?



for the test to be valid it entails having access to different populations of wild angelfish from each three species. its basically repeating the schulz experiment but using dna instead of meristics. i imagine mitochondrial dna may not be able to reveal differences since both may be very close to each other ( although i wouldnt rule out exploring the mitochondrial dna avenue). so genomic dna has to be used. there are several methods that can be used. i would refer you to this paper that summarizes the techniques that are currently available:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r21 ... ltext.html

i do not know if dna data is available for pterophyllum.

meristics is probably more accessible at the moment in the absence of baseline pterophyllum dna data.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:56 pm
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Location: Bishop's Waltham UK
Potential UK source of Tan Altums
http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/p ... 211620.php


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