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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:47 am 
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Hi Everyone,

I wanted to indicate one more important aspect that may have got lost in the translated message that was referred to at the start of this thread. From the skalare.de site, I have seen that they indicate that the fishes on the last pic are not all Siegrist line fishes. They indicate that the top fish on the right hand side of the image is a Siegrist line fish, but that the fish in the middle to bottom of the pic is a wild-caught Venezuelan fish. This is the fish with the darker stripes as far as I understand. I have posted the image again for ease of viewing. I think this pic was posted to show how similar these fishes are in actual fact.

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Dirk


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Thanks Dirk!!

The altums, although from different locations, look very similar. For example the fin:body ratio is kept, overall size, shape and barring are also similar. There is a small difference in the coloration, but this could be attributed to the diet, time that they've been kept in the aquaria, lighting, age of the fish and so forth.

Eduar

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:14 pm 
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The fact that some are darker and some lighter barred must not be interpreted as a difference between the specimens in the image. They all have the ability to change the intensity of their bar color tones in seconds.
Seigrest fish to me, as per pic, show a virtually equal phenotype to WC Orinoco.
Ed

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:50 am 
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Simon has sent some more photos (and a question)

Simon wrote;

From: Kundenservice Skalarezucht <info@skalarezucht.de>
Subject: AW: Ihre schönen Altums
To: "'The Finarama Administration'" <info_finarama@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 1:49 AM

Hallo Phill,



leider habe ich sehr wenig Zeit, für das Forum Beiträge zu schreiben.

Ich würde gerne lesen, was die Mitglieder so über meine Altums schreiben. Leider funktioniert der Google-Übersetzer nicht.

Kannst du das aktivieren ?



Die Siegrist Linie, die ich züchte, stammen nach meiner Meinung aus dem Rio Inirida. Anhand von Vergleichen mit verschiedenen Fotos aus Internetseiten und Büchern. Es handelt sich auf jeden Fall nicht um eine Kreuzung aus Pt. Altum und Pt. Skalar – also keine Hybriden !!

Dies ist nach meiner langjährigen Erfahrung als Züchter nicht möglich. Das es sich nicht um Hybriden handelt, habe ich auch Herrn Bleher mitgeteilt und er hat es zwischenzeitlich auf seiner homepage Interzoo 2010 korrigiert ! Dennoch will er nicht einsehen, dass es sich um Pt. Altum handelt und nicht um Pt. Spez. Aber das ist seine Meinung !



Ich besitze übrigens seit 16 Jahren Altum Skalare und hatte bereits verschiedene Wildfänge und Nachzuchten, und kann mir so selbst ein Bild machen.



Entscheidend für mich ist natürlich immer die Aufzucht der Jungfische, so dass sie optimal wachsen und eine schöne Körperform und Flossenlänge bekommen. Gute Wasserqualität, hohes Becken, ausreichende Fütterung !



Anbei schicke ich zwei Fotos von einer neuen Altum Nachzucht – welchem Flusssystem würdet ihr den Fisch im Finarama zuordnen ?



Vielen Dank für deine Bemühungen im voraus.



Simon Forkel

Translation by Dirk Bellstedt:


Hi Phill,



Unfortunately I have very little time to write contributions for the forum.



I would like to read what members would write about my altums. Unfortunately the Google translator does not work. Can you activate the Google translator?



The Siegrist line that I breed originates from the Rio Inirida in my opinion based on comparisons with internet pages and books. Under no circumstances are we dealing with crosses between P. altum and P. scalare – so no hybrids!!



Based on my experiences of many years as a breeder this is not possible. I have also informed Mr Bleher we are not dealing with hybrids when it comes to my fishes, and he has in the meantime corrected this on his homepage of the Interzoo 2010. In spite of this he does not want to accept that we are dealing with P. altum here and not with P. spec. But this is his opinion!



I have kept altums now for 16 years and have already kept a variety of wild caughts and domestically bred altums, for which reason, I also have had the opportunity to form my own opinion on the matter.



In my opinion the deciding factor is still the raising of the young fishes so that they grow optimally and get a nice body shape and fin length. Good water quality, a deep (high) aquarium and sufficient food.



I attach two photographs of my latest altum offspring – to which river system would members of this forum assign this fish?



Many thanks for your efforts in advance,



Simon Forkel


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:21 am 
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Mr. Forkel, welcome to Finarma. I hope to write more later tonight. It is an honor to have you here.
I knew little about your work. I have posted some comments a few times regarding your work.
My conclusion was always that no matter what you were doing, your fish looked every bit as much as the true Orinoco Pterophyllum altum. The one I collected for so many years in my native Venezuela. Nothing different.
Now that you have clarified the origins of your bloodlines (Thnx Phill for your courtesy). I have no reason to question what my eyes see as evident.
My deepest admiration.
Ed

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:26 pm 
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And I will translate so that Simon can read your message Ed:

Herr Forkel, herzlich willkommen auf Finarama. I hoffe um mehr heute Abend schreiben zu können. Es ist eine Ehre um Dich hier zu empfangen. Ich weiss nicht viel von Ihrer Arbeit. Ich habe ein paar Kommentare bezüglich Ihrer Arbeit zuvor auf diesem Forum geschrieben.

Meine Schlussfolgerung war noch immer dass was immer Du getan hast, Deine Fische noch immer vollkommen wie echte Orinoco Pterophyllum altum ausgesehen haben, genau wie die die ich in Venezuela für so viele Jahre gesammelt habe, absolut kein Unterschied!

Da Du jetzt die Ursprunge Deiner Blutlinienen geklärt hast (Danke Phill für Deine Hilfe), habe ich keine Gründe das zu bezweifeln was ich vor mir sehe.

Meine grösste Bewunderung!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:06 pm 
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It is very satisfying to see that many people here, as well as in many other countries, are and have been right in the identification of the P. altum angelfish all along. Hopefuly we'll all get some DNA confirmation in the near future.

It is equally satisfying to know that this specie it's being bred more and more and if I have the chance to obtain captive bred specimens, instead of the wild caught, I will surely do so.

Again, thanks Phill for bringing this subject to our attention and Dirk for his translation. And to Herr S. Forkel also thanks and welcome to Finarama.

Eduar

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Last edited by Acualtum on Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Thank you very much Dirk for your translation.
Ed

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:27 am 
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And I will translate Eduar's (Acualtum) reply / Ich übersetze die Antwort von Eduar (Acualtum):

Es ist sehr befriedigend um zu sehen dass viele Personen hier, als auch in vielen anderen Ländern, die Identifizierung van P. altum korrekt haben und auch schom immer korrekt hatten. Hoffentlich werden wir alle in der absehbaren Zukunft eine DNA Bestätigung dafür bekommen.

Es ist genau so befriedigend um zu wissen dass diese Art (Species) mehr und mehr gezüchtet wird, und ich werde eher Nachzuchten kaufen (erwerben) als Wildfänge wenn ich die Gelegenheit bekommen sollte.

Wiedermals vielen Dank an Phill dafür dass er dieses Thema aufgebracht hat, und Dirk für seine Übersetzung. Und an Herrn S. Forkel auch vielen Dank und herzlich willkommen auf Finarama.

Eduar

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Some more of Simon's superb Altum.
Text translation by Dirk


Hallo Phill,

das Foto 1889 und 1867 ist der gleiche Fisch; es handelt sich um ein
männliches Tier. Von dieser Population habe ich ein Paar von einem guten
Freund erhalten, der sie aus einem Import aus Venezuela gekauft und
großgezogen hat (Alter jetzt 3 Jahre). Dieses Paar habe ich jetzt zum
Laichen angesetzt und ich hoffe, mir gelingt die Nachzucht, da sie optimal
gewachsen sind und sehr viel Rotanteil im Kopf- und Rückenbereich haben.
Somit hätte ich dann meine eigene Zuchtlinie von Altum Wildfängen.

Ich werde dann zu gegebener Zeit auf meiner homepage darüber berichten.

Die Ãœbersetzung von englisch auf deutsch ist mit dem Google Translator im
Forum nicht möglich. Danke trotzdem für deine Bemühungen - auch an Dirk !

Viele Grüße - Simon Forkel

My translation follows:



The Photograph 1889 and 1867 (I think he is referring to pic 1869) is of the same fish; we are dealing with a male fish here. I have obtained a pair of this population from a good friend who bought these out of a Venezuelan import and raised them (now 3 years old). I have now placed these fishes in an aquarium to lay eggs and I hope that I will succeed in breeding them because they have grown out optimally and they have a lot of red coloration on the head and the back. If this would succeed I would have my own breeding line of wild caught altums.

I will report about this on my home page in due course.

The translation from English to German on the forum is not possible with Google translator. Thank you nevertheless for your efforts – also to Dirk.

Kind regards – Simon Forkel


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Last edited by Phill Austen on Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:12 pm 
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Text translated by Dirk Bellstedt
Das sind die Elterntiere zu meiner Neuzüchtung Foto habe ich dir bereits
geschickt - Foto 1529 + 1535

es handelt sich um eine Altum Nachzucht der Linke Linie mit einer Nachzucht
der Siegrist Linie und so entstanden diese schönen Nachzuchten - Alter 8
Monate -
Ich denke, damit hat sich bewiesen, dass es bei beiden Linien um den echten
Skalar aus dem Orinoco handelt und nicht wie manche Fischkundler behaupten,
aus dem Rio Negro. Denn nach meinem Wissen sind noch keine Altum im Rio
Negro gefunden worden, sondern immer nur Pt. Skalar, die ihm nur ähnlich
sehen.



And the translation:



These are the parents of my offspring, the photos of which I have already sent you – photo 1529 + 1535

In this instance we are dealing with altum offspring of the Linke line with the Siegrist line, and this is how these pretty offspring arose – age 8 months –

I think that thereby this shows proof that with both lines we are dealing with true altums from the Orinoco and not as claimed by some fish specialists that these fishes are from the Rio Negro. According to my knowledge no altums have been found in the Rio Negro, always only P. scalare that look similar to P altum.

Simon Forkel


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:21 am 
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Hi Simon, I notice that beautiful specimen with a lot of red pigmentation shows more of a reticulated pattern than a spotted pattern on his head, this is interesting. I still of course beleive that it is typical and very beautiful Orinoco Altum.

As to P. altum occurring in the Rio Negro or not, as you know, that is one big river. It is important that we mention localities to the extent possible. Usually, I can never get a straight answer when I ask for clarification of a location. For jealousy of information, commercial secrecy or competition, many people just don't want to reveal more details and this is not helpful.

I personally cannot talk of the Rio Negro except at its very origin, only the first miles as it departs from the junction of the Casiquiare and the Guainia. P. altum, the same as those in the Orinoco proper occur in this uppermost birth of the river, but we have seen no P. scalare there. I have seen them at San Carlos de Rio Negro, there are reports (I think Hongslo, but also others), have collected them at San Felipe de Rio Negro which is on the opposite bank of the river on the Colombian side.

I understand there is an important system of rapids and waterfalls at Sao Gabriel Da Cachoeira, which would impede access of species such as Pterophyllum and Symphysodon upstream from this area. And still this is questionable. We would need to determine when those cataracts were formed as a geological event can happen at any moment and a species can populate an area before the event occurred. OK, I will grant that the Guyana Shield which borders this area is very stable from a sysmic POV.

But there is nothing that impedes, and on the contrary, the currents are of great help, for Orinoco species to arrive at the Rio Negro. That there may be a rather inhospitable section along the Upper Rio Negro that does harbor any readily evident populations of P. altum (I can tell you that the Ventuari subbasin and Atabapo are very populated with this species, not rare at all), is something I may understand.

But even not too far upstream of Sao Gabriel, near a town with the name of Sao Marcelino, a Biologist friend onf mine, collected what we acknowledged back then (early-mid 80's) as P altum. It is possible that this may have been an altum-scalare cross as we were not concerned at the moment with that possibility. But then, this is still above the cataracts I mention. So we still beleive those fish were P. altum and there was nothing at first glance that made us think otherwise.

Please take into account that both the Biologist I mention, Edgar W. Cabezas, and myself, are Venezuelans and we are basically familiar with wild P. altum and to minimal extent with wild P. scalare.

I have never had the opportunity to collect wild P. scalare.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:53 am 
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And I will translate Ed’s message again / und ich übersetze die Botschaft von puertoayacucho (Ed):

Hallo Simon,

Ich habe bemerkt dass das hüsche Exemplar mit dem hohen Rotanteil ein retikuliertes Muster eher als ein geflecktes Muster auf dem Kopf hat, dieses ist sehr interessant. Ich bin noch immer der Meinung dass es ein typischer and sehr hübscher Orinoco Altum ist.

Bezüglich dem Vorkommen von P. altum im Rio Negro oder nicht, ist, wie Du weisst, dieses ein sehr grosser Fluss! Es ist wichtig dass so weit möglich Lokalitäten erwähnt werden in wiefern dieses möglich ist. Normalerweise bekomme ich nicht eine klare Antwort wenn ich um die Lokalität bitte. Wegen dem Neid an dieser Information, kommerzielle Geheime or Wedbewerb, wollen viele Leute einfach nicht einem mehr Detail geben und dieses hilft natürlich nicht sehr.

Ich kann mich nicht persönlich über den Rio Negro aussprechen, ausser der Gegend wo der Rio Negro seinen Ursprung hat, nur einige Meilen von wo der Fluss wegfliesst von wo der Casiquiare und der Guainia verbunden sind. P. altum, die gleichen wie sie in dem echten Orinoco vorkommen, kommen auch in diesen ganz oberen Teilen des Flusses vor, aber wir haben keine P. scalare dort gesehen. I habe sie gesehen bei San Carlos de Rio Negro, es gibt berichte (ich denke Hongslo, aber auch Andere), haben sie gesammelt bei San Felipe de Rio Negro, das auf dem gegenüber gelegenen Ufer des Flusses auf der Kolumbianischen Seite liegt.

Ich habe verstanden dass ein wichtiges System von Wasser Fällen bei Sao Gabriel Da Cachoeira vorkommt dass den Vorsprung von Arten von Pterophyllum und Symphysodon stromaufwärts dieser Gegend verhindern würde. Dieses ist aber befraglich. Man müsste feststellen wann diese Wasserfälle sich geologisch gebildet haben im Rahmen der Zeit und ob eine Art diese Gegend bevölkert hatte bevor diese Wasserfälle enstanden sind. Ich gebe zu dass das Guyana Schild dass an diese Gegend grenzt, sehr stabil ist gesehen aus der Sysmischen Sicht.

Aber es gibt nichts das verhindert dass Orinoco species in den Rio Negro eindringen, im Gegenteil die Strömung ist von grosser Hilfe. Dass der obere Rio Negro eine recht unfreundliches Teil hat wo keine wirkliche Populationen von P. altum vorkommen kann ich verstehen, aber dafür kann ich Dir sagen dass das der Ventuari Ablauf und der Atabapo eine sehr hohe Anzahl an P altum wohl hat.

Aber sogar nicht weit stromauf von Sao Gabriel, nähe der Stadt mit dem Namen San Marcelino, hat ein Freund von mir der Biologe ist, einen Fisch gesammelt den wir damals (frühe 1980ziger Jahre) als P altum betrachtet haben. Es ist möglich dass dieses eine altum-scalare Kreuzung war, da wir zu der Zeit uns nicht befasst hatten mit der Möglichkeit. Aber dann ist diese Gegend immer noch Fluss aufwärts der obig genannten Wasserfälle. Wir glauben also dass diese Fische P altum waren und es gab nichts dass uns anders denken lies.

Bitte beachte aber dass der Biologe den ich nannte, Edgar W. Cabezas, und ich beide Venezuelaner sind und wir uns auskannten mit P altum, aber uns sehr schlecht auskannten mit wilden P scalare.

Ich habe noch nie die Gelegenheit gehabt um wilde P scalare zu sammeln.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:04 am 
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There are some beautiful altums shown in this thread.
However, it also illustrates how identification can be problematic.

Going right back to the first picture in the thread, I'd have to confess that I wouldn't have called that fish an altum. Just comparing that to the second fish shows significant differences, perhaps the most striking being the band through the eye. I would have guessed it to be a Rio Negro angelfish, or a hybrid.

And that's the problem. Angelfish vary, even within the same species, and perhaps even more so when comparing a fish raised in a tank from one in the wild.
It might be an altum, it might not.


Given the nature of some of the discussions, as we have said before nothing less than dna profiling is likely to reduce the contentiousness of some of the opinions given.


Alec


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:47 am 
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Hi Alec, not sure if you refer to the very first pic, which I know that you know is a juvenile. The only fish that to me shows any difference is the one with extremely red pigmentation, a bit atypical for an altum, and I am curious more as to the apparently genetic attribute of distribution in the pigment cells in this area (reticulation vs. spotting). It could represent an interesting strain feature for the future. Otherwise, it is Orinoco to me.

As to the first, second and third pics, I see a young juvenile which will perfectly turn into the same type of specimen that pics 2 and 3 in the thread show (Colombian and Venezuelan 14 mo. olds, both "older teeangers", barely 21 by human comparison).

These fish are still far from the full blown, really big 3-4 year olds (and up), especially as to the accumulation of adipose tissue and head conformation (similar to mature adult discus) that begins to develop after growth per se has finished).

So in part, I think part of the confusion is working with specimens of different ages and focusing on characteristics that are age dependent.

On the other hand, if you look at the issue I am talking about (cell pigment distribution), also age dependent, but in this case, once the pigment appears, the pattern (reticulation vs. spotting) is not an age dependent variable.

This is the first time this type of pattern comes to my attention. I may have seen this type before (I have seen fish with heavy red pigmentation in the heads from the Ventuari), but never looked at it twice...these digital photos make a big difference.

Ed

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