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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:13 am 
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Hi guys,
I use peat and catappa to provide organics and to soften and acidify my altum and heckel water (100% r/o). I use muriatic (hydrochloric) acid, to further acidify the water once the peat and catappa have done their share because I keep my tanks between pH 4.5 and 5.0, which is hard to achieve by natural means alone.
This weekend I purchased a gallon of an Eco-Friendly muriatic acid that sells for about 7.00 bucks at Lowe's. I added the same proportions I always use to both the altum tank and the heckel tank...both tanks came down to where I wanted them. near 5.0.
The altums loved it and they are doing great...heckels hated it and they are beginning to recover from skin and eye burn... it hit them bad.
Just a suggestion, take care when using this product... not that it's bad... but just be careful... dilute it with enough water and add it slowly, in doses...even if you already have predetrmined doses with an equivalent product. I will try and read the label and get the manufacturer's name so you can know exactly what product I am referring to.
I have also used sulfuric acid (pH Minus) for pools, no problem, but always go slowly.
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Ed

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:47 am 
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Thanks for the information Ed...I am about to tackle the ph aspect of my tank...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:45 pm 
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puertoayacucho wrote:
Hi guys,
I use peat and catappa to provide organics and to soften and acidify my altum and heckel water (100% r/o). I use muriatic (hydrochloric) acid, to further acidify the water once the peat and catappa have done their share because I keep my tanks between pH 4.5 and 5.0, which is hard to achieve by natural means alone.
This weekend I purchased a gallon of an Eco-Friendly muriatic acid that sells for about 7.00 bucks at Lowe's. I added the same proportions I always use to both the altum tank and the heckel tank...both tanks came down to where I wanted them. near 5.0.
The altums loved it and they are doing great...heckels hated it and they are beginning to recover from skin and eye burn... it hit them bad.
Just a suggestion, take care when using this product... not that it's bad... but just be careful... dilute it with enough water and add it slowly, in doses...even if you already have predetrmined doses with an equivalent product. I will try and read the label and get the manufacturer's name so you can know exactly what product I am referring to.
I have also used sulfuric acid (pH Minus) for pools, no problem, but always go slowly.
Regards
Ed
HI Ed,
I thought that the discus have more slime to protect them more than the angels would.
The order of adding the acidifiers which you outline sounds like a better idea than using the muriatic first, which is what I was doing before. Then peat lowered the pH so much that I couldn't very well use lots of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:44 am 
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I think discus might have more slime but are less tolerant basically because altum as a species has evolved in more acidic waters (just a theory).
Last time when I posted on this matter, the heckels got hit bad with body and eye burn..I managed to control the situation with two full water changes over 2 days... by the 4th day they had recovered impressively to virtually 100% and all signs that anything had gone wrong had just disappeared.
And as a matter of fact last night I did a water change and pH adjustments in both the same tanks but taking much more care. Again the altums took it great, and the heckels did not like it...their bar pattern intensifying and clamping fins only seconds after the acid hit the water. I immediately did a 30% water change and a couple of hours later they were again back to their business and in nothing had happened.
So I think the product is not the problem, but rather, that I had been using sulphuric acid at a much mored diluted concentration and this particular hydrochloric acid is really strong. I threw away about 16 ounces of 50/50 aqueous solution of this "green" product on my driveway and the concrete bubbled and gasified profusely. A few drops fell on my legs and in seconds I had to run to the hose to flush my legs...quite a sting.
I will be working with a 10% solution (90%R/O to 10% HCL) from now on. With the heckels I will add 50ml, wait a few hours and see how they react.
I only add the acid after water changes and having added the catappa/peat mix and only if the pH has gone out of range.
Ed

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Location: Toronto Canada
Ed, ever since reading about how the flouride used in municiplal water treatment plants is industrial grade ( reclaimed from smokestacks ), I have been a bit more paranoid about what kind of chemicals I might use.

Here is the head of preventative dentistry at University of Toronto
Quote:
Most cities...use hydrofluorosilicic acid (or its salt). H2SiF6 is concentrated directly from the smokestack scrubbers during the production of phosphate fertilizer, shipped to water treatment plants and trickled directly into the drinking water. It is industrial grade fluoride contaminated with trace amounts of heavy metals such as lead, arsenic and radium, which are harmful to humans at the levels that are being added to fluoridate the drinking water. In addition, using hydrofluorosilicic acid instead of industrial grade sodium fluoride has an added risk of increasing lead accumulation in children (Masters et al 2000, Neurotoxicology. 21(6): 1091- 1099), probably from the lead found in the pipes of old houses


Maybe this is Eco-Friendly but not Fish Friendly, perhaps some plastics or other product it was reclaimed from is different from how they get the regular stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:32 pm 
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I've been picking up things in the news and on the radio and tv about how the flouridation of water supplies that we have been doing for 60 years or so may not be all the good gospel that have always claimed it to be...

I thought Heckels and Altums sort of evolved and coexist together in the wild in the same waters and ecology??? Guess that is what I get for thinking when I am not used to it...hahaha


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:09 pm 
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I am not sure if Rio Negro Altums (actually P. scalare from) coexist with Heckels. Heiko can give you a definite reply to this...why not send him a PM.
Ed

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:36 am 
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Late reply but Heckel Discus do like very low pH but they do not take kindly to any change that is too rapid. I don't know whether Heckels can tolerate a lower pH than Altums but Heckels can thrive in water with a pH as low as 3.5.
I personally think 4.0 is plenty low enough.
I am sure there are many times when Rio Negro Pterophyllum are found in the same place as Heckels but they may not always be found together. I suspect there aren't many places where you can't catch both from the same place. You might have to drive them from different places to the net. It isn't like they normally school together.

The Green Discus from the upper Western Amazon tributaries are found in water nearly as acid as the Heckels but usually not quite. pH of 5.0 would be more typical for the Greens.

The Blue/Brown Discus avoid the extremes and prefer water between 6.O and 7.0 and are often found in water with a pH as high as 7.2 wherever such water occurs within their range. A pH above 7.0 is fairly rare within their range but not unheard of. This is one of the reasons why S.haraldi is so easy to keep and became the primary founding stock of domestics strains.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:58 am 
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I have my altums and heckels at about 5.0 right now. And yes, the altum in this sense, tolerate faster changes (acid addition) much better than the heckels. I have to be really careful with the latter.
Ed

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Hi Ed,

Quick question re muriatic (hydrochloric) acid. I have been trying to find this in HK. When I ask for this at the hardware stores, they would usually hand me a clear bottle with a yellowish liquid inside. There is no label/branding whatsoever on the bottle so I have not bought any. I was told this liquid is highly corrosive and use for clean etc. Inside the bottle, there would also be bits of things floating around (not sure whether these bits are supposed to be there or just dirt that got trapped when they manually bottle the stuff).

Can you please confirm if yours is a yellowish liquid?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:48 pm 
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It is a clear, light yellow liquid. It is used to clean up cement and limescale, of general everyday use in construction and masonry work. If they do no sell a commercially bottled/labeled product I would be very careful.

If you allow a capful of the product to spill on a concrete sidewalk, it will fume and pit the concrete on contact.

If using r/o water, you should prepare a solution using about 4 capfuls (20cc) to about 200-250cc of r/o water which you can store in a glass bottle.

Slowly add about 20cc of the diluted solution to your tank and wait a while to take your pH reading.

Once you manage to drop your pH about 0.5 units, wait 12 hrs before continuing.

Ed

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


Last edited by puertoayacucho on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:50 pm 
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BTW Chongo, please register at the new forum at http://www.finarama.org/forum
We are in the process of transitioning into our new internet website.

Ed

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Hi Chongo,
Ed is wisely recommending that you make a diluted stock solution because even the material sold at hardware stores is so strong it is very easy to over dose the fish water if you use it as sold.
No matter how you use it always make the pH adjustments in a water storage container and allow the adjusted water several hours to become uniform.
Many people have made the mistake of trying to adjust the pH lower in the fish tank and have lost all their fish.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Yes Chongo. I would definitely go by Larry's advice. Do this in a storage container first and then use this water to make your small water changes until the pH is where we are aiming at.

I know in my post you are reading that I do this directly in my tank... and that's what it says... but it's been many years at it and many a fish and money down the drain. In time, you can do this in your aquarium, but I would prefer you go by Larry's advice as to how to tackle the pH issue.

Ed

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Plus always add the acid to the water, never add water to acid.


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