re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#2
Actually it is the first commercial exportation of the species. They come from Lake Maracaibo, Catatumbo Delta, Zulia (VEN) and are being exported through Bogota.

This not the Colombian (Magdalena basin) P. cochliodon, an almost identical, also blue eyed Panaque, which is less rare, though still very hard to find nowdays.

P. cochliodon and P. suttonorum it seems were a same species way back but have evolved with very slight distinctions. The basins they occur in are separated by a very narrow and northernmost tip of the Andes Mountains that runs between Northern Colombia and Venezuela. Some experts consider them a same species, but when you see them side by side, the differences in proportions and slight marking differences are evident.

Ed
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.

re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#3
You guys should follow the talk on planetcatfish about these plecos.
Trying to tell those who have bought the Colombian species that only Oliver Lucanus has or had any of the real P. suttonorum lately falls on deaf ears.. I should think at the several hundreds of dollars more he charged for his specimens should be evidence enough or at least a clue that there are two different but similar species.
Some are actually trying to breed them in good sized aquariums but I think only a volume of water large enough to contain an old growth stump or two has a snowball's chance in Hell of succeeding and only then if it has a flow through water supply of the right composition.

What do you think?
Larry Waybright
Trout fly fisherman.

re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#4
Those of us somewhat more familiar with P. suttonorum (AKA P. suttoni or Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaque), as of now, LM-BEP; in as far as the many years of pinpointing their actual habitat and due to the fact that they are one of our backyard fish - even if not common (more so since my family has several haciendas or farms in the Catatumbo and South Lake Region of the Lake Maracaibo Basin) in the State of Zulia are pretty clear as to the existence of two distinct species (or maybe subspecies) with very similar traits, though distiguishable to the eye of the not so trained.

In Colombia, on the West side of the Sierra Perija we have the Magdalena River Basin which is home to Panaque cochliodon (another Blue Eyed Panaque which we may refer to as the Magdalena River Blue Eyed Panaque or MR-BEP) with a very similar body color to the LM-BEP.

The Magdalena Fish is flatter (horizontally compressed) and less compact while the Lake Maracaibo species is a higher, stockier fish.

Some authors (esp. Schultz) refer white markings on body and fins of suttonorum but these are age/stage related traits not present in all specimens.

The Colombian Magdalena BEP is more readlily available and is many times sold at a reasonable price. Four or five years ago I saw a lot being sold at USD 15.00 a piece in Baranquilla. Of course, speculators will offer them at a much higher price.

A little over a year ago a couple of fishermen from Encontrados, Zulia, came upon some mature adult specimens in their seines while fishing in deeper lake waters near oil well platforms near the mouth of the Catatumbo River. This is a very clear and clean area of the Lake due to the number of large rivers that shed their water into the area (extreme South Lake Maracaibo) despite the Oil Industry activity.

The juvenile form prefers the middle and higher sections of the rivers in the area. We are not certain if the adults swim up the streams and rivers mainly to breed since large adults are not frequently found upstream.

Now there is at least one party that we know of, maybe more are doing it now, smuggling the LM-BEP into Colombia to export it. OTF exports in general are very hard to work from Venezuela for the moment since the "authority" is no more than one huge bribing machine and it makes any luxury product ridiculously expensive.

I can tell you first hand that Oliver did travel to Venezuela and clicked the right buttons in November 2007 and that he has received and sold more then 50 LM-BEP, mostly to reasonable Asian fanciers. He even sent me a pic of himself posing in front of a Chavez billboard (made my day? yeh right.) Oliver knows Zulian waters very well.

LM-BEP's cost is four low cyphers virtually at the source.

Ed
Last edited by puertoayacucho on Sat May 31, 2008 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.

re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#5
Ed,
Would you post this on planetcatfish or allow me to do so to your credit?

Here is the thread:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=22667
here is the last post:
taksan wrote:
apistomaster wrote:There are two forms of Blue eye Panaque. The original was those found in the Maricaibo drainage but just to the east within Columbia, is the other Blue eye Panaque which is the one being exported with one exception. Oliver Lucanus, http://www.belowwater.com, recently brought in a few specimens he was allowed to collect from the Maricaibo basin. These fish are very, very expensive.
The two forms are not identical. They have been separated by a geographical barrier long enough that it has allowed for some divergent evolution.

FARC doesn't collect fish; they impose a tax on all forms of business people living and working in their territory. The woman FARC warrior is carrying enough 7.62 mm AKA 47/74 ammo to ruin many a fish collector's day should he object to paying the taxes.
I am extremely skeptical of Belowwaters claims about those fish and I'm not alone.
Larry Waybright
Trout fly fisherman.

re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#10
I'm guessing that the Germans will have them too, in a short time. Rather, it SEEMS this person says they already had them in 2OO6 ???????????????? I think they had nice cochliodon and even they were expensive ? but it says they had two kinds....this is anecdotal, though, and can't take it at face value that there were suttonorum in Germany 2006, but maybe, huh ?
how about amazon exotic ? They seem to mirror Oliver's lists at times.

http://cache.search.yahoo-ht2.akadns.ne ... 1&.intl=us
Last edited by rag on Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:02 am, edited 4 times in total.

re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#11
This blue-eyed Panaque, along with another of its kind, was imported from Venezuela by Aquarium Glaser in May 2006. Despite their enor-
mous price these fishes very quickly found a buyer.
Photo: F. Schäfer
In 2001, Roland Numrich and Oliver Lucanus searched for this spe-
Blütenpracht
am Gartenteich
Schwertlilien, Primeln und Seerosen
Viele Menschen möchten sich nicht
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Zu den Arten, die sich ideal zur Pflege am und im Gartenteich
eignen, gehören auch zahlreiche Vertreter aus den Gattungen
der Schwertlilien sowie der Primel- und Seerosengewächse.
Sie alle entwickeln eine fantastische Blütenpracht. Durch eine
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kann man erreichen, dass von Ende März bis Anfang
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Axel Gutjahr beschäftigt sich seit rund 20 Jahren intensiv mit
Gartenteichen, wobei sein besonderes Interesse den Pflanzen
gilt. In Wort und Bild stellt er nicht nur zahlreiche, herrlich
blühende Schwertlilien sowie Primel- und Seerosengewächse
vor, sondern gibt darüber hinaus auch wertvolle Tipps zur
deren Standort- und Pflegeansprüchen, die wiederum die
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Schwertlilien, Primeln und Seerosen
von Axel Gutjahr
This blue-eyed Panaque, along with another of its kind, was imported from Venezuela by Aquarium Glaser in May 2006. Despite their enor-
mous price these fishes very quickly found a buyer.
Photo: F. Schäfer
cies in the Lake Maracaibo region. They failed not only in finding it, but the species was also comple-
tely unknown to the local fishermen.Many therefore now believe that the blue-eyed pleco that has been
known for many years within the hobby is not P. suttonorum at all, but P. cochliodon. There is also a
(growing) body of opinion that both ‘species’ may actually be one species, rather than two.I’ve checked
this out on the FishBase website (www.fishbase.org) and it regards both as distinct species. Further,
the relevant pages dedicated to synonyms (which were last updated on 16 March, 2006) reinforce this
view. Interestingly, though, the species summary page for P. suttonorum says that it is commerciali-
sed for aquaria, while the corresponding page for P. cochliodon does not refer to aquarium use at all!
Despite this ambiguity, though, current trends point towards regarding both fish as belonging to a
single species and, since P. cochliodon was described first, its name would take precedence over P. sut-
tonorum.Aquarium Carecies in the Lake Maracaibo region. They failed not only in finding it, but the species was also comple-
tely unknown to the local fishermen.Many therefore now believe that the blue-eyed pleco that has been
known for many years within the hobby is not P. suttonorum at all, but P. cochliodon. There is also a
(growing) body of opinion that both ‘species’ may actually be one species, rather than two.I’ve checked
this out on the FishBase website (www.fishbase.org) and it regards both as distinct species. Further,
the relevant pages dedicated to synonyms (which were last updated on 16 March, 2006) reinforce this
view. Interestingly, though, the species summary page for P. suttonorum says that it is commerciali-
sed for aquaria, while the corresponding page for P. cochliodon does not refer to aquarium use at all!
Despite this ambiguity, though, current trends point towards regarding both fish as belonging to a
single species and, since P. cochliodon was described first, its name would take precedence over P. sut-
tonorum.

re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#14
Dave, reading through the German translation I'd like to say:

1. P. cochliodon (The Blue Eyed Panaque from the Rio Magdalena Basin) is the more commercialized and first discovered species. This fish has been continuously collected though never in abundance. It is frequently offered in the market at reasonable even cheap prices. It is it's similarity with P. suttonorum which has given this species an artificial value. I think I told you about an experience I had some five years ago with an exproter in Barranquilla. Colombia offering P. suttoni (suttonorum) at $15.00 a piece. I immediately contacted the man and asked if he would allow Wil to drive to his facility (6 hrs from Maracaibo, our hometown) to see his specimens and that I was willing to buy them all if they actually were Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaques. The man never answered my e-mails or the phone after I proposed our visit. I later learned that what he was offering was the Magadalena BEP. The price was still very good and I would have bought them all at that price, I may have paid even more than his asking price.

2. The Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaque had only very rarely been commercialized, or for the fact, very rarely collected. Only isolated catches had been reported along the 60 something years since it was discovered by L. Schultz. Two of these were made by Wil Cabezas, others by Hender Urdaneta, Donald Taphorn I am pretty sure caught some and virtually there were no more reports until January 2007 when a fisherman from Encontrados caught a first adult female that was killed before being identified. As of then a couple of more catches were made and an area in South Lake Maracaibo near the mouth of the Rio Catatumbo. A growing number of adults have been caught in this area.

Smaller specimens occur un into the rivers flowing into Lake Maracaibo. Though a few of these rivers are born in Colombia, they are isolated from the Magdalena Basin by the Andes Mountains. Schultz' description was based on mid sized juvenile specimens from the Rio Motatan (East Lake Maracaibo Andean foothills) and Rio Yaza (West Lake Maracaibo Andean Foothills - Sierra de Perija).

The options for lowering the price on Suttonorum juvies is either that someone hit the goldpot - which Wil and I endeavored so hard to find without fruit, or, they are P. cochliodon, which will continue to be offered as P. suttonorum on the market, just because! Very few people can tell the difference.

It is much easier to tell apart Baryancistrus demantoides from Hemiancistrus subviridis (the two forms of Green Phantom Pleco) than to tell apart the Magadalena and Lake Maracaibo BEP. Only having the two species side by side can you appreciate the slight differences in body ratios. Juveniles of one species (suttonorum) have white markings on the tail and I think, on the body (I've read Schultz' papers hundred of times, but many years back) while it seems P. cochliodon does not have these markings.

2. Aquarium Caracie? in Maracaibo? I wish I had a name of the person or persons behind that firm... I know most everybody in the OTF trade and academic/research in Maracaibo, except very new people, and still then, I can find out who they are.

Ed
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.

Re: re: panaque suttonorum at Oliver's

#15
apistomaster wrote:You guys should follow the talk on planetcatfish about these plecos.
Trying to tell those who have bought the Colombian species that only Oliver Lucanus has or had any of the real P. suttonorum lately falls on deaf ears..
What do you think?
I think I have found a problem we have had in rejecting their argument more efficiently.


We have been wrongly persuaded that before the time of the importation by Oliver , ANY shipments , even in the 80's , contained ANY suttonorum. Note that you said "lately". I believe this is just a concession we've made to the brats, and it shouldn't be given, and shouldn't be incorporated into our thinking on this matter. I was doing that yesterfay for a concession, and then thinking it likely true, later.

It's wrong though.

The fallacy involves the timing of natural and human-made disasters that supposedly happened to the Maracaibo populations. We've even got a Vet second hand reporting disease in them. we've got oil spills,. construction etc
At about the same time, the imports of the supposed suttonorum decline markedly.

They causally connect the supposed disasters in Maracaibo with decline of their supposedly suttonorum imports: a boo boo.

this logical error drives the misunderstanding, I believe.


anyway, these guys say that suttonorum were fairly common, so we KNOW that they are talking about cochliodon, and they NEVER saw a suttorum. Even if a few did get sent out some time or other. These guys are claiming that they were fairly common, thus establishing nicely that they were in fact seeing only cochliodon, never suttonorum.

If they claim the differences too slight to tell, that some were suttonorum, then we have to ask how they consider themselves a good judge of these too-slight-to-tell signs.

To support their claim, they should be able to go to museums and find jar specimens everywhere/ It was a not too rare fish, they say.
cron