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 Post subject: True Atabapo P Altums?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:54 am 
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So I have only two Altums according to this that are true Atabapo P Altums that I can identify.

https://www.facebook.com/12380201434680 ... =1&theater

Pterophyllum Altum added 3 new photos.
Yesterday at 4:39am ยท

For those who still doubt what is the real P. altum, from Atabapo, looks like. This here is one of the syntypes from which the Frenchman Pellegrin described it in 1903. The syntypes are deposited in the Natural History Museum in Paris, where I photographed them. One thing is easy to see: the bands in tail and dorsal fins are only 3 (three), but more details also in DISCUSBOOK04 and the entire history in DISCUSBOOK01


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:01 pm 
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Fish in link above...did not take his vitamins!

Hey D, I understand you emphasize the idea "True P. Altum = Atabapo Altum"... is this so?

How many angelfish, altum and those you consider or know are non altum do you have?

Can you post pics or redirect us to pics of those fish you have that are altum and the possibly not altum?

Ed

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:14 pm 
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I was referring to the post.
"One thing is easy to see: the bands in tail and dorsal fins are only 3 (three), but more details also in DISCUSBOOK04 and the entire history in DISCUSBOOK01"

Two have only three but the one showing red has 4 bands.
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:22 pm 
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I believe this fish showing the red coloration on the dorsal area could be from the Santa Isabel/Tapurucuara area (Dirk, this would be in the vicinity of the Boa vista location from where the samples of the study were collected). I will try to get a hold of Paolo Piccinelli in Italy who was one of the first to report to us this type of fish.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:30 pm 
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Dick, you may want to look at this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1676&p=18812&hilit=santa+isabel+paolo#p18812

Scroll down and you will see the fish I refer to. Heiko participated in the thread.

Attached below is an image from that thread (courtesy P. Piccinelli). Focus on the fish encircled in red.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Hi Dick,

In my considered opinion all of your fishes are from the same source, which I presume would be Colombia and I would think that your fishes come from the Rio Inirida, that is simply where most are imported from and the Rio Atabapo imports are actually quite rare.

Then, firstly, I would make no deductions about the origins of P altums based on pictures before they are fully adult, yours still have a lot of growing to do and a diagnosis about where they are from based on pictures is just simply premature.

Then, secondly, your fishes went through a phase where they lost fins and were exposed to considerable external bacterial infections. Such infections can have permanent abnormal effects on the color formation, and what we are seeing on the fish that you show is an abnormal color pattern due to the infections and not because of different origins in my opinion.

My advice is to simply allow these fishes to grow out and then assess what they look like. In my opinion they are not St Isabel, but pure P altum. I have absolutely no reason to doubt this after looking at your pics over many months.

My DNA study is doing one thing and that is that it is showing that based on color markings alone, it is very difficult to identify where they come from. I would actually like to see that the ongoing emotion that is fuelled into the altum scene calms down. These claims about which person claims that fishes come from the one or the other locality or are of mixed origin based on one or two poor pictures does not help the situation at all.

Kind regards,

Dirk

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:50 pm 
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Dirk Bellstedt wrote:
Hi Dick,

In my considered opinion all of your fishes are from the same source, which I presume would be Colombia and I would think that your fishes come from the Rio Inirida, that is simply where most are imported from and the Rio Atabapo imports are actually quite rare.

Then, firstly, I would make no deductions about the origins of P altums based on pictures before they are fully adult, yours still have a lot of growing to do and a diagnosis about where they are from based on pictures is just simply premature.

Then, secondly, your fishes went through a phase where they lost fins and were exposed to considerable external bacterial infections. Such infections can have permanent abnormal effects on the color formation, and what we are seeing on the fish that you show is an abnormal color pattern due to the infections and not because of different origins in my opinion.

My advice is to simply allow these fishes to grow out and then assess what they look like. In my opinion they are not St Isabel, but pure P altum. I have absolutely no reason to doubt this after looking at your pics over many months.

My DNA study is doing one thing and that is that it is showing that based on color markings alone, it is very difficult to identify where they come from. I would actually like to see that the ongoing emotion that is fuelled into the altum scene calms down. These claims about which person claims that fishes come from the one or the other locality or are of mixed origin based on one or two poor pictures does not help the situation at all.

Kind regards,

Dirk


I think Dirk's opinion is the soundest advice here and confess I did not think of neither the ordeal your fish went through not of the degree of the consequences...

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