It is currently Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:47 am
 

 




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:39 pm
Posts: 2955
Location: Toronto Canada
Now that we have some good information on capture locale of many types of scalare and a couple of locales for leos, isn't it time to update our ID page ? In other words, why have an ID page listing fish by the outdated and synonymized names ?

We can now show that some Rio Negro scalare have a gold sheen with black dots and Oyapoque have a green sheen.

That's one example of much more detailed info than we have displayed right now.

What do you think about this ?

Elsewhere there is literature to give the full history and explanations for the taxonomy in each era, and information as to why and how the old or synonymized names have been dealt with.

Listing the old names once again, even categorizing by them in this instance, is not justified as part of ID by photo.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:10 pm 
Offline
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 4232
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Good suggestion Dave... try PMing Alec on this!

Ed

_________________
God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
E.R.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 am
Posts: 460
Location: The Netherlands
May I do the same suggestion? After discussions about Peruvian angels, Pt. Altum and Rio Negro 'Altum', Santa Isabel 'Altum' etc.
I know for a fact that many people in the world look to the Finarama ID page as one of the leading sources. I would say that it is our responsibility to keep it up to date.

A handfull of many useful topics:

Peruvian Angels and Emeikei: http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1668

Pt. Altum, Rio Negro 'Altum' and Santa Isabel 'Altum':
http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1676

Rio Juta:
http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1669

Redback Tapajos and Xingu:
http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1635

And many many more at the Finarama forum...
So much knowledge here, why not share it with the rest of the world!

_________________
Video's of my Pt. Altum, Pt. sp. Santa Isabel and Pt. Sp. Rio Nanay:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:07 am 
Offline
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Reno
Hi, I'm glad that this topic was posted. I was wondering if it needed to be updated as well. I will look into the links provided and work on updating it. I have not stayed on top of the discussions, so I may need some assistance with ID. Please feel free to email me at finarama@yahoo.com or post suggestions here.

Thanks so much! :wink:
Michelle


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Posts: 821
Location: Czech republic
Hi friends.
Our good old Finarama forum has beginning go outgrow over head us. For more themes what gave Dave and Joost here, we had answers in some threads. Yes, it´s only one way - opening similar new themes, what be more bright for eyes.

I´ll be try give answers for some questions here now.

How come off some new informations about natural populations of P.scalare in Amazonia, I begin find out that really depend some color signs on momentary environment, where how population group are living. If do you find some nice red back population in one river and rehoused them into another river, they can change their red signs for several months. We can get so more red or without red color fishes. Very same situation we know today from fishrooms. Yes, I know, how is nice for example "Manacapuru" red shoulder. Before more years I was observed "two" types of these scalares here in fishrooms of two my friends. Every population had another red signs. I gave for one population name "Typ I" (similar as from P.Goebel, who was first known of it in Europe) - fishes with more red places on head and back (owner was gained them from Germany). "Typ II" with only few red color back gained another friend in Switzerland. Between both types were very big differences with red. I said me in that time "why not?". Manacapuru River is long more than 350 km and have too much water systems and we didn´t know, what different populations of these fishes could been found. Now is situation absolutely another. We have here more F3 and F4 generations from more breeders, who gained their fishes from both breeders. If we can see some fishes at several tanks over whole Czech republic, we can see too much differences between ones from Typ I and Typ II groups. At one breeder in Pilsen I saw Manacapuru clear perfect Typ I, but owner said me, that they´re descendants from Switzerland fishes.......
In this case I must after some last years take reverent attitude for Heiko Bleher´s arguments, what he said last Autumn in Prague - that it all must depend on water chemistry of environments and food, what they have there. It have also logic, if we can study some anathomy of their dermis and color cells there.
So it´s very nice, if we can say for example "...these nice red dot angels from Peru/Negro/Guyana...", but not sure, if same fishes will be look in other locality in same color signs.....

Grotesque on my aknowledges os my "Amazonian Guru" are reverse recognize about his assertions about body color of P.leopoldi. H.Bleher said, that leopoldi from Solimoes and Amazona locality have more silver color of body and against for it leopoldi from soft blackwaters (Negro) have "pink" body. My old fishes were from some "Xingu" hunt and ever eight pieces from one place. Every from them took these colors, what they want in one moment. So their body color have one day as pink and second day silver (you can see on my old pictures here in Finarama - there it´s look clear). My leopoldi took their colors after it, how they feel them.

OK Dave, I agree with you and this opinion was one from my important things for AAA (Adventure with Amazonian Angels). About whole system of Pterophyllum genus narrate in complete chapter 6. Taxonomy and Pterophyllum genus and 7. Pterophyllum genus, where I have all about it, what is know.
If I want be consistent, I was must make deep in animal taxonomy, to can take out on light all continuities.
Over it I was got also to one of my hypotheses (6.1 Short view into Biogeography of Cichlidae). Both two remaining parts have all informations about classify of Pterophyllum genus in Animal Kingdom and about historic survey cognition of Pterophyllum.
Chapter 7 treat of every species extra. I gave all knowledges from (Schultze) Lichtenstein, Valenciennes to Gosse in original descriptions. If I was surprised in their brevity and imperfection against today modern descriptions of fishes, I must gave after it, after works from L.P.Schultz, W.Burgess and S.O.Kullander, H.J.Paepke and at last after perfect pictures some new all descriptions, where I was extracted more important informations about differences between every specie (as time go by, I have today also some newest informations for would-be "second part of AAA". Here is also chapter about undescribed species - for example about P.sp. "Nanay" (7.5). In chapter 7 is all about angel´s tyxonomy, what is exist.

Joost.
Over it, that I´m hard exponent of Kullander´s revisions, after I was study also works from Schultz and Burgess, I was must said me, that there are also too much interesting elements. If I was began found some communal elements of all three revisions and after it was knew also Kullander´s last new works about tribus Heroini, it were led me to one hypothese - "search craddle of Pterophyllum genus in Amazonia".

Where are big query marks before us now? I think, that in getting all possible informations from Brazilia at first. There are too much "white places" around scalare´s populations and more occasions around potential some new species. Brasilia is greatest and have very hard law for aquarists now. For it I see, that Heiko Bleher is one, who can browse there as free "fishman" now. I don´t know about some other human.....
Gain really serious informations about all known population is very difficult problem for us and not some interesting thing for merchandisers there. We didn´t push them for better work (woth GSM, etc.), because scalares and leopoldis aren´t discuses.......
We talked about these themes before one year here on Finarama also for example with our friend Aquanaut I think.
I have now in my diffident databeze of wild populations of P.scalare some around thirty types. But it all flow on too much deep water.....

Yes, I think also, that Alec have more serious informations about wild scalares from his rich aquaristic life.

Jan

_________________
Breathing never coming from fashion!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 am
Posts: 460
Location: The Netherlands
To take the ID page of Finarama to a higher level I would like to suggest to also include the fin ray and scale counts of the different types.

_________________
Video's of my Pt. Altum, Pt. sp. Santa Isabel and Pt. Sp. Rio Nanay:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:55 pm 
Offline
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Reno
These are questions that I need to find the answers to:

1. Has there been a new review of the genus since Kullander 1986? His fin ray & scale counts are the last that I know of.

2. Have the differences between Pt. Altum & Pt. Scalare been worked out? If so, is there scientific data to back that up? If not, we need to be careful. If the true scalare looks much like the altum but with subtle differences, then what is the fish we call "scalare?"

3. What is the overall opinion of the members here concerning the valid species? Do you believe that there are variants of each species? It has been accepted that there are variants of Pt. Scalare, it seems logical that the other two species would also have some variants.

I do agree that location plays a part in the appearance of the fish. I also believe that the wild genes will mutate just as we see in domestics. It may be at a much slower rate, but I do believe it happens. Also, since there have been specimens lost to the wild due to flooding, it only seems logical to assume that they adjusted to the wild and have cross bred with the local specimens. Do we have any data regarding flooded hatcheries? This would be very helpful.

It appears obvious that there are many many variants of the valid species. But under what species are we going to classify them at? Because people do rely so much on the Finarama ID page, we need to be as accurate as we possibly can. As far as I know, there are only 3 valid species. Therefore, there can only be 3 categories and we expand upon that with location data. If there have been fin ray and scale counts done, we can list that as well if the information is available. It would be interesting to see if these counts fall within the current review. But, if there isn't new "scientific" research published somewhere detailing the valid species, the best we can do is group them under the species they most closely resemble and list them as a possible variant with location data.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:38 pm 
Offline
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Reno
Please feel free to argue/disagree with me. I won't bite, I promise. I really need your input on this subject. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:39 am 
Offline
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Reno
Jan, I think I'm on the same page as you. It sounds like you are doing some wonderful research!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Posts: 821
Location: Czech republic
Michelle wrote:
These are questions that I need to find the answers to:

1. Has there been a new review of the genus since Kullander 1986? His fin ray & scale counts are the last that I know of.

2. Have the differences between Pt. Altum & Pt. Scalare been worked out? If so, is there scientific data to back that up? If not, we need to be careful. If the true scalare looks much like the altum but with subtle differences, then what is the fish we call "scalare?"

3. What is the overall opinion of the members here concerning the valid species? Do you believe that there are variants of each species? It has been accepted that there are variants of Pt. Scalare, it seems logical that the other two species would also have some variants.

I do agree that location plays a part in the appearance of the fish. I also believe that the wild genes will mutate just as we see in domestics. It may be at a much slower rate, but I do believe it happens. Also, since there have been specimens lost to the wild due to flooding, it only seems logical to assume that they adjusted to the wild and have cross bred with the local specimens. Do we have any data regarding flooded hatcheries? This would be very helpful.

It appears obvious that there are many many variants of the valid species. But under what species are we going to classify them at? Because people do rely so much on the Finarama ID page, we need to be as accurate as we possibly can. As far as I know, there are only 3 valid species. Therefore, there can only be 3 categories and we expand upon that with location data. If there have been fin ray and scale counts done, we can list that as well if the information is available. It would be interesting to see if these counts fall within the current review. But, if there isn't new "scientific" research published somewhere detailing the valid species, the best we can do is group them under the species they most closely resemble and list them as a possible variant with location data.


Some answers from me.
1. What I know, so Kullander´s revision of Pterophyllum genus (1986) is relevant and last to today. Nobody else made something new to now.

2. I think, that differences between altum and scalare are clear after Kullander´s revision.

3. It´s difficult to give answer. If exists much of scalare wild forms, nobody know some special different forms at altums and leopoldis. Only some small differences at altums with few of red dots on head and back, but it could been only from another special chemism of water or from some special food on local places.

I have only one small own hypothes for it. P.leopoldi can be elder - near beginning of Pterophyllum genus born (Kullander´s work about proximity of Mesonauta festiva gens). I mean, if leopoldi can be elder of all Pterophyllums and they have some perfection in their own evolution. P.altum are on the other side youngest in whole genus, but they´re living for their whole life in same static environments. For it they are also so much ticklish and unadaptive. Also they got from nature some proficiency and their evolution were finished or slowed.
May be or not may be?

Here in Finarama we can lead off for public only from last serious work - what is Kullenader´s to now. So we have only three valid species - altum, leopoldi and scalare. If we haven´t into our disposition any perfect environment for research, about all rest of things we can make only discusions and hypotheses I think.

Jan

_________________
Breathing never coming from fashion!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 am
Posts: 460
Location: The Netherlands
But what is the value of all these discussions and hypotheses if we feel that we can not draw any conclusions from them?
I think that all together here at Finarama there is more knowledge combined than that of one single Ichtyologist.
I think that there is nothing wrong with publishing certain things that have been thoroughly discussed and where in general people agree on. Certainly if these things can be backed up with good photos, probable or certain finding locations, finray and scale counts etc.
The last official scientific research dates from 24 years ago! The world is a lot smaller nowadays, knowledge has increased significantly, Ichtyology diploma or not...
And what is the problem with science proving us wrong at some points in the future? At least we discuss things, try to increase the knowledge on angelfish. Why not trigger more discussions and hypotheses in the world by publishing some stuff that most of us agree on?!
Even science often proves previous scientific outcomes wrong years later.

And when we don't know for sure if we should call a certain fish Leopoldi, Altum, Scalare, Eimekei, sp. etc. why not then publish a few good pictures, finding location(s) and all else we know with the most common name, or sometimes even names.

_________________
Video's of my Pt. Altum, Pt. sp. Santa Isabel and Pt. Sp. Rio Nanay:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:42 am 
Offline
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Reno
Jan, good... we are thinking the same. :wink:

Joost (I'm sorry, I do not know your first name)... I completely understand what you are saying. I think we can do that here, with fish that are suspected of being variant or possible new species, we have to make that very clear in the description so that new hobbyists have a clear understanding.

I agree that the original Identification guide is not very clear and I can see how it might be confusing to some people. The current ID guide shows juveniles and different variants of each species, but they are still categorized under the correct valid species. What we originally thought was Pt. Dumerilii was (apparently) never a dumerilii at all. However, some hobbyists still think this species is valid in some parts of the world. This is why it is listed as Pt. Leopoldi/dumerilii. Pt. Eimekei is no longer valid, although the body shape is very clear and is consistent with what we thought to be a valid species. This is why it is listed as Pt. Scalare(Eimekei). Anyhow, this was just a quick simple guide at the time it was created but it is nearly 10 years old. It is time to update it and add more information that will better help people to identify their wilds.

It would be great if we can find scale and fin ray counts from hobbyists. I still have all my wilds that I lost in a storm years ago and am sending a request to UNR's biology department to see if someone can count them for me. It would be great if someone could, so we'll see. All fingers crossed.

If anyone finds or has photos of fish they feel should be included in this guide, please send them to finarama@yahoo.com or post them here. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Posts: 821
Location: Czech republic
Yes Michelle.

Let me please some free time. I´m beginning two projects now, what could be interesting for Finarama.

1. After finishing AAA works I was began make new paintworks again. Now it´s some over 40 paints of wild angels. I´ll be prepare some paints of all "four" natural known different types as ideal view - altum, leopoldi, scalare and also sp."Nanay". Self-evident, that I take as supply package for altum pictures from H.Bleher.

2. It´s going hand in hand, that around preparation of paintworks I must study more special whole anatom of wild angels and from all good photos what I have now I recalculate dorsal, anal rays and other signs, what I can. (It´s damage, that nor one picture didn´t good - sufficient sharp for perfect enumerate their scales in lateral lines). Together also I´m translating more descriptions of freshwater fishes, from last years, for what better understanding of whole broad issue now. So I take "know-how" - how on it in todays style! At same time I begin communication with one our specialist for fish skeletons and anatom. It lead me all to it, if I discovery more serious differences if is possible describe sp. Nanay as new specie.... .... and or really find out, that they´re only local special form from P.scalare...

Make describe new species can be everybody, who is feel on it. If coming bad description, after some time come somebody other and make revision. It´s possible way.

Jan

_________________
Breathing never coming from fashion!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:45 am 
Offline
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Reno
Hi Jan, yes.... we can take some time. I'd love to see what we can all put together here for the update.

I am a little behind (may a lot behind) the current identification of our fish. I do get confused by IDing a species by location. It doesn't tell me what the valid species it is. I would ID like this.... (unless someone has a better suggestion):

Genus->Species->Synonym->(V?=variant?) and/or (PNS?=possibly new species?)-> Location->Counts

I have to relearn IDing fish by location alone, but I think the new ID page should be a lot more clear for new hobbyists. Can anyone tell me how many location ID's there are and does someone have a list? If not, perhaps we should make one and work on getting it clarified so we have a guide to go by. I know it would be helpful to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 am
Posts: 460
Location: The Netherlands
I dream of a map of south america with on there little clickable pictures of the angels that we know the finding locations of for sure. That would give a so much better impression of what is found where, and would give a great view of possible connections between the different species....

Joost

_________________
Video's of my Pt. Altum, Pt. sp. Santa Isabel and Pt. Sp. Rio Nanay:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

 

 
 

Species Identification Guide


Domestic Angelfish Genetics


Angelfish Chronicles


Members Galleries


 
Contact: Forum Administration
E-mail: info@finarama.com
Finarama.com
Dedicated to further understanding the Genus Pterophyllum