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 Post subject: Odd Sleeping Behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:36 am 
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Hello,

My discus and Altum seem to sleep so oddly. They almost lay down when sleeping, barely moving. The first time I noticed, it alarmed me greatly. However, they seem to just sleep oddly. After turning the lights on, they orient themselves properly and swim around like nothing happened within about 10 mins . Note: that dither fish do not exhibit this odd behavior.

My question is has anyone experienced this behavior before? Could this be a sign of a larger issue? They don't stick around the top gasping for air, nor do they stay at the bottom - No labored breathing. All fins erect.

Thanks,


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:01 pm 
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By your description, I can't say I think it's normal. Not that I have never seen it among discus, many years ago back in Venezuela I remember having a similar issue with my own fish, but I can't really remember why?

I think you have substrate in your tank? right? So this would knock out any possibility of a light or reflection issue that may sometimes cause fish to take this position when in a bare bottom tank and being kept in a dark room during the night and having a reflection coming in through the bottom. If you have a bare bottom tank, you might look into this possibility.

Another possibility is how the current moves in your tank. Any possibility that the fish are trying to accommodate to a better position (for rest) due to a direct current in part of the water column?

For the moment, I have my altums in a bare bottom (temporary arrangment) and the lights in the garage are on all the time, but under the tank there is a solid opaque surface that does not allow light to come in through the bottom.

What happens, is that if the fish are in rather complete or major darkness, with a source of light coming from a position other than from above, they may "interpret" that the light comes from above, even if it really comes from below, or the side, and they may take a position relative to the light, rather than relative to true vertical alignment (swim bladder related equilibrium).

Then, you may have a swim bladder related issue, be it temporary/intermittent, related or not to proper digestion, among other issues.

Any chance you would like to post a video?

Ed

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:40 pm 
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puertoayacucho wrote:
By your description, I can't say I think it's normal. Not that I have never seen it among discus, many years ago back in Venezuela I remember having a similar issue with my own fish, but I can't really remember why?

I think you have substrate in your tank? right? So this would knock out any possibility of a light or reflection issue that may sometimes cause fish to take this position when in a bare bottom tank and being kept in a dark room during the night and having a reflection coming in through the bottom. If you have a bare bottom tank, you might look into this possibility.

Another possibility is how the current moves in your tank. Any possibility that the fish are trying to accommodate to a better position (for rest) due to a direct current in part of the water column?

For the moment, I have my altums in a bare bottom (temporary arrangment) and the lights in the garage are on all the time, but under the tank there is a solid opaque surface that does not allow light to come in through the bottom.

What happens, is that if the fish are in rather complete or major darkness, with a source of light coming from a position other than from above, they may "interpret" that the light comes from above, even if it really comes from below, or the side, and they may take a position relative to the light, rather than relative to true vertical alignment (swim bladder related equilibrium).

Then, you may have a swim bladder related issue, be it temporary/intermittent, related or not to proper digestion, among other issues.

Any chance you would like to post a video?

Ed



Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJjeZm3_5TU&list=UULCNImVze8AzlSI1LNvBTdg


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:27 pm 
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The video is private and will not play.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Yep, didn't work for me either.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:13 am 
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Sorry. It should be fixed.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Hi Eric,
Don't believe it is an actual illness related issue. Might the lights be on the strong side? Before the lights come on, how dark is it (while they sleep)? and it looks like you have some sort of wavemaker or other oscillating current that moves around your fish in a way that they are not too comfortable???

This is similar to the behavior my fish showed after some 20 minutes after power came back after a blackout we suffered in fall of 2012. When I say 20 minutes after... I mean they were calming down... in my case, right after the lights, filters and pumps came back on after several hours of pitch black, the fish went berzerk, plunging into everything, many hurt their eyes beyond complete recovery. What I am seeing is a behavior that my fish showed when they had already calmed down after that terrible experience. So I wonder if it may be related in any way to s similar experience as mine, but in a much lesser degree.

If your fish sleep in pitch black, or in a very dark environment, and your aquarium hood lights come on suddenly, this could have something to do with it. What do you think?

I don't see any swim bladder related symptom or for the fact, any symptom of disease, just physical stress and uncomfort.

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:40 pm 
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puertoayacucho wrote:
Hi Eric,
Don't believe it is an actual illness related issue. Might the lights be on the strong side? Before the lights come on, how dark is it (while they sleep)? and it looks like you have some sort of wavemaker or other oscillating current that moves around your fish in a way that they are not too comfortable???

This is similar to the behavior my fish showed after some 20 minutes after power came back after a blackout we suffered in fall of 2012. When I say 20 minutes after... I mean they were calming down... in my case, right after the lights, filters and pumps came back on after several hours of pitch black, the fish went berzerk, plunging into everything, many hurt their eyes beyond complete recovery. What I am seeing is a behavior that my fish showed when they had already calmed down after that terrible experience. So I wonder if it may be related in any way to s similar experience as mine, but in a much lesser degree.

If your fish sleep in pitch black, or in a very dark environment, and your aquarium hood lights come on suddenly, this could have something to do with it. What do you think?

I don't see any swim bladder related symptom or for the fact, any symptom of disease, just physical stress and uncomfort.


I think you're correct. This was the second instance of this happening, albeit far far less nerve wracking. There was one Sterbai cory dying in that video. Odd since I had never had one die before. Perhaps due to stress. I had been moving things around quite a bit. All angels now eat fine. The domestic discus are more sensitive, ironically.

The area is pitch black in dark. This may have a concussive effect. Perhaps over stimulation, similar to being blinded. I think I want to invest in a moonlight so they are never truly in pitch black environment. I found that the fish prefer to be in a spot light (during nighttime) as opposed to being in a dark environment. AKA they essentially followed the spot light around the tank as I moved it. (Experimented with an LED diode).

Despite all of my worries of them being sick, it seems they've never actually been sick before. I must be doing something right.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:06 pm 
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Glad they aren't sick and I think you're on the right track.

I had never kept my fish in pitch dark so my bad experience after the blackout was the first time for them (after being taken out of the shipping box when they were babies). Since then, I have a pair of battery powered LED lights that I turn on when we have a scheduled maintenance power outage... I'll just leave them on when I leave in the morning (of a scheduled date previously notified by the power company). At night, I always leave the one main fishroom/garage lighbulb on, which is a rather dim 60W bulb. Providing some floating plants (I have used plastic plants) or other shade to diffuse the hood light also helps.

In nature, even in the brightest places, the water where altum are found, is really dark (even if turbidity proper is virtually none), and the sand plays an important role in reflecting the little light that reaches the bottom.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:15 pm 
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Ed,
Forkel's fish room was very bright in the video. Do we know if he always keeps it bright?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:09 pm 
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puertoayacucho wrote:
Glad they aren't sick and I think you're on the right track.

I had never kept my fish in pitch dark so my bad experience after the blackout was the first time for them (after being taken out of the shipping box when they were babies). Since then, I have a pair of battery powered LED lights that I turn on when we have a scheduled maintenance power outage... I'll just leave them on when I leave in the morning (of a scheduled date previously notified by the power company). At night, I always leave the one main fishroom/garage lighbulb on, which is a rather dim 60W bulb. Providing some floating plants (I have used plastic plants) or other shade to diffuse the hood light also helps.

In nature, even in the brightest places, the water where altum are found, is really dark (even if turbidity proper is virtually none), and the sand plays an important role in reflecting the little light that reaches the bottom.


I'm watching the altum now. They are completely comfortable in their new tank now. It seems as if they're playing in their tank. They seem more active under slight darkness.

Also,

I PICKED UP 4 ADDITIONAL BABY ALTUMS!!!!! :) I suspect they're inirida as well. Wish they were Atabapo. Seems to be more difficult to obtain than Inirida. Working on landing them now. They're being treated with oxytetracycline right out of the bag. The importer is a different source. Landed them properly in a 4.2 pH environment. I matched the environment. They even ate. Oh the thrill of it all!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:27 pm 
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As to Simon's lighting, I wonder if Dirk can answer that quicker than I can...I'd have to write him, though you can try dropping him a PM. I get lazy when I'm on this phone.

At this point of the season both Inirida and Atabapo are coming in.

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:53 am 
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puertoayacucho wrote:
As to Simon's lighting, I wonder if Dirk can answer that quicker than I can...I'd have to write him, though you can try dropping him a PM. I get lazy when I'm on this phone.

At this point of the season both Inirida and Atabapo are coming in.



Is there a feasible way to tell the difference at a young age? Thank you kindly,


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:03 pm 
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Got word from exporter this evening and he is not receiving Atabapo just yet.

As to differentiating them at a young age can become a subjective game. It looks like some locations in the Inirida produce young altum which look very much in color and fin length as Atabapos, whereas other locations, produce fish with slightly less color... at a young age, they all have long and beautiful fins, especially after a few months when the settle in.

They are sometimes easier to distinguish as adults, as the Atabapo, Ventuari and Rio Negro fish tend to present a more intense red pigmentation in fins and head, and sometimes, somewhat longer fin appendixes. But then, you can also find adults of similar quality at some Inirida locations, but they are less frequently seen.

Rio Ventuari produces the most colorful specimens, but then, they are rarely offered, and when offered, they are usually really the more colorful Atabapo specimens being renamed...well, no big issue, they are the same species and their is population exchange among these tributaries.

Rio Negro also produces real beauties, rivaling the best Ventuaris, but dang they are double the price... logistics hit hard. They have been rarely imported or even offered since 2012 when they were rediscovered.

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God listens. He may not always give you everything you want, when you want it; but he always gives you what you really need, when you need it most!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:18 pm 
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Hi,

I think that your problem will be too strong stream of water from your filter. It is seen in the video, they have problem with coordination of movement ...


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